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View Diary: It's not just a few mass killers who are sick and twisted. Some gun manufacturers are worse (544 comments)

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  •  but what does that accomplish? (7+ / 0-)

    with respect, the RKBA (dKos) reactions are not any measure of effective change.  they may be interesting to read, but they are of no real importance in a time when we need more and must make a higher priority than pie fights.

    Yes, we need to talk about this. Please sign the dKos Petition to start a national conversation about gun control.

    by Avila on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 04:16:25 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Important because they can help (29+ / 0-)

      us understand how to create meaningful reform. They know more about gun culture than most and are Democrats to dialogue with on this issue. Many are far Lefties as well. They are, many of them, polite people and many hate the NRA and lobbyists. If you want to combat the NRA and combat gun violence, talking with gun owners is NOT a bad way to go about it, IMHO.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:08:14 PM PST

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      •  They are a tiny, tiny fraction of the gun owners (0+ / 0-)

        active on this site, and they have no special font of knowledge.

        This place needs a PVP server.

        by JesseCW on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:57:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And with that (13+ / 0-)

          you just marked yourself as someone who has no interest in talking to us, or me.
          Do you seriously want to recuse yourself from the discussion?
          I'm in it.

          █████████████████████████████████████████

          by kestrel9000 on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:15:25 PM PST

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          •  I was going to add to this (15+ / 0-)

            that RKBA folks are the most passionate about this conversation and thus more likely to be vocal about it in coming up with a solution that is plausible and passable and follows what Democrats or Progressives tend to support as well.

            I think this whole thing is shocking and honestly, it makes me think a great deal about what we should do to keep it from happening again. We've had mass murders before, but never so many in a row, and never with kids this young. I think the kids' age did something to me inside. I won't be able to stop thinking, "How do we keep guns out of the hands of mentally unstable, violent people?" again.

            Loughner, Holmes, Cho, Roberts, Lanza, and the Oakland Police Department all seem to qualify to me.

            Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

            by mahakali overdrive on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:24:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're right. I've seen your bullying act (9+ / 0-)

            time and again and I have no interest in talking to you.

            The vast majority of the gun owners on this site do not agree with you that the 2nd protects a "right" to carry concealed weapons in public.

            You don't represent us.  

            You're not here to engage in real dialogue.

            You're not supportive of realistic gun regulation that will actually make people reasonably safe.

            You're an organized pack dedicated to preventing or de-railing debate.

            You've got nothing of value to add  - except maybe advice on how to play the Ref's and try to get those who call you on your shit banned.

            This place needs a PVP server.

            by JesseCW on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 06:42:43 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  K9K, since you are here and seem ready... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kestrel9000, Sandino, Laconic Lib

            to talk, how about you address a question I put to you just this past Wednesday, just before this horrible crime.

            It was a thread regarding reasons why massacres as we have just witnessed, didn't happen so much until after the 1950s. Let me refresh...

            Way to try to muddy the waters. What changed? (12+ / 0-)

            Vietnam happened.

            Watergate happened.

            The Pill was developed.

            The banksters tried to destroy the economy.

            JFK, MLK and RFK were assassinated.

            Ronald Reagan was elected, twice.

            Hell, George W. Bush was elected, twice.

            Psychologically, society reacted to these and many other changes.

            You diminish yourself with your specious argument about 'technology'.

            "I believe more women should carry guns. I believe armed women will make the world a better place. Women need to come to think of themselves not as victims but as dangerous." Anna Pigeon

            by glorificus on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:47:55 AM PST

            [ Parent | Reply to This ]

            In reply you said...
            heh (11+ / 0-)

            "You diminish yourself"

            phthpbphptphpbphptphpbphptphpbphpt :)

            Thank you for acknowledging my larger point:

            The mindset of society changed.

            Not the availability of guns.

            "That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the State ..."- Vermont Constitution Chapter 1, Article 16

            by kestrel9000 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 07:51:06 AM PST

            [ Parent | Reply to This ]

            (emphasis added)

            My question to you at the time, which you either ignored or just missed due to time differences was...

            "The mindset of society changed." (0+ / 0-)

            This is an argument for more or less access to guns?

            'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

            by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Wed Dec 12, 2012 at 02:11:52 PM PST

            [ Parent | Reply to This ]

            So, would you like to answer the question now?

            'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

            by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 11:00:54 PM PST

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            •  Neither. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tom Seaview

              And thanks for the boldface. It's early and my eyes are full of gunk.

              •  Well that is disappointing. You make... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Sandino

                a sweeping statement regarding American societal attitudes towards gun violence and you give a cowardly one word non-answer.

                In your diary you were celebrating the expansion of carry laws.

                Please expand further on 'neither', because I;m sure the parents of 20 dead kids and seven adults deserve an explanation.

                'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 05:33:24 AM PST

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                •  Knock that shit off. (0+ / 0-)
                  I;m sure the parents of 20 dead kids and seven adults deserve an explanation.
                  What, you gonna email them all a link?
                  •  I'm trying to understand where gun advocates (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Laconic Lib

                    like yourself are coming from.

                    You have made a sweeping statement that American societal attitude has changed since the 1950s WRT guns. I wanted to know if that change was an argument for more or less access to guns and you come back with a one word non-answer.

                    Please expand on 'neither'.

                    As a personal weapons advocate, please also explain what you think of the expansion of carry laws in Illinois, and how it makes people safer in your mind.

                    'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                    by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 12:44:21 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

      •  Would that help? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laconic Lib

        I'm not sure that understanding forced birthed culture is really a productive step toward crafting solid protection for wens rights either.  I don't get the sense that understanding gun culture gets anyone very far

        Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

        by Mindful Nature on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 07:30:46 PM PST

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        •  Do you take time to understand the Black (4+ / 0-)

          Hispanic or Chinese Cultures?  Yes, for meaningful and constructive dialogue to ensue, we must understand each other.

          We don't have to agree with each other but honestly understanding one another is mandatory, imo.

          Imagine we are negotiating a peace treaty after a long protracted bitter war where there was no clear victor.  Could either side be all authoritarian and expect the peace to last?  Nope.

          Dividing Americans any further will result in more violence, more hatred AND no solutions.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 08:00:00 PM PST

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          •  That's entirely different (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            poco, Laconic Lib

            in that those are actual cultures. Here we just have a radically different moral position.  I can understand it all I want, but that doesn't mean that understanding it helps.  It isn't "totalitarian" to advocate for a policy that saves lives anymore than it is "totalitarian" to advocate for a health care policy that saves lives.  Half measures will not really work.

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:07:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  First thing to understand (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1, 43north, Avila, poco

          There's more than one "gun culture".

          There's security nerds, there's cops and ex-cops, there's sick wackos, there's lovers of the outdoors, there's collectors, there's hobbyists.

          There's people like me, who wondered what all the fuss was about and learned to shoot and decided there wasn't much point in it.

    •  It might help you to understand what would be (11+ / 0-)

      effective legislation. What constitutes an assault weapon vs a rifle that can be manipulated to act like one. I can't answer the technical questions about firearms because I don't own one, my interest in RKBA comes from a different place.

      I can talk to you about the mindset of your average western gun owner and remind everyone that many of the states out here are swing states, this is a constituency that are willing to go with Democrats but need to feel secure that they are understood.

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Sat Dec 15, 2012 at 05:16:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Avila, with respect, I disagree. We must do more (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Avila

      than sign a lame petition.  No disrespect for your opinion, however, what pie fights are you referencing?  I've seen nothing but logical, intelligent discourse.

      •  i really don't (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        want to revisit what i read in hidden comments on Friday, but it wasn't logical.  i doubt anything was resolved.  better to move forward, i think.

        the petition may seem lame, but i visualize it as a step forward.  any positive action at all, no matter how small or lame it may seem, is better than doing nothing at all, imo.  

        Yes, we need to talk about this. Please sign the dKos Petition to start a national conversation about gun control.

        by Avila on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:28:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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