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View Diary: Civil gun discussions? Our community is the shelter for each other. (167 comments)

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  •  No (6+ / 0-)

    I cannot agree to disagree...I can promise to disagree with less venom.  I think you are wrong about guns...and I will be vocal about it, and I will forcefully try to pass a new AWB, and,other gun control measures.

    And i expect that you will object and argue against that...and that's OK.

    And on other issues we will agree.

    "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

    by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:34:37 PM PST

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    •  I'm good with that. (6+ / 0-)

      I don't have to agree all the time with everyone. I've never liked to fight if it can be avoided.

      "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

      by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:46:57 PM PST

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      •  We are gonna argue (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, high uintas, fuzzyguy

        But let's try to have that be in the philosophical sense of the word rather than popular sense of the word.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:48:54 PM PST

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        •  maybe if we can find a way (4+ / 0-)

          to change the terminology?

          "Gun control" has been taken to mean "no guns for anyone, nevermore," when what I think it means is "let's do something about regulating the proliferation of assault weapons designed to maim and kill and their acquisition by untrained and possibly dangerous people."

          Maybe something like "regulation" rather than control? And proposing that people who buy guns be required to pass a safety course similar to what's required for a driver's license?

          The truth is rarely pure and never simple. -- Oscar Wilde

          by Mnemosyne on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:42:25 PM PST

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          •  Does the term "assault weapons" include (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas, ZhenRen, Sandino

            all semi-automatic guns and ammunition?

            Another problem with the so-called gun conversation here is that those who advocate regulation are expected to know all about guns. They are called ignorant if they don't know what an assault weapon is, if they are not familiar with ammunition and calibers whatever. We just want to prevent people from getting shot we don't need to be gun experts for that.

            I agree with you on the word "control" - words are so important. "Regulation" is better.

            ❧To thine ownself be true

            by Agathena on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:13:44 PM PST

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            •  I do understand your point (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Agathena, theboz, gerrilea, oldpunk, fuzzyguy

              One of the issues that crops up is that advocates for stricter gun laws often don't target the laws effectively. If you ban a gun that can be easily modified to the point where kits are openly sold to do the modification you are wasting time.

              For that reason it's important to have people who do understand guns involved in the process. If we agree that to outright ban guns is impossible and also agree that there are real problems we need to make decisions that are as informed as possible.

              I am a supporter of the 2nd but do not own a gun and know precious little about the different types of guns out there. I have to defer to those who know the details. That is why dialog is so important, if we can get agreement across the board then the NRA honchos will be meaningless.

              "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

              by high uintas on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:41:37 PM PST

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              •  My battle-experienced veteran (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Agathena, high uintas, GreenMother

                father taught me to shoot when I was a child. I had my own rifle, and was expected to be able to take it apart, clean it and reassemble it before I was allowed live ammunition.

                I was also a proud Junior member of the NRA, with the marksmanship badges to prove it.

                I have no problem with people who hunt to feed their families through the winter, or who keep guns to shoot rats in the barn. But no civilian needs a weapon designed for combat, where dozens, even hundreds, of shots are fired within seconds.

                This country has upwards of 300 million guns, more than any other on the planet. And with the recent rash of laws permitting both concealed and open carry, I'm afraid to walk down the streets of most American cities, because you never know what kind of nutcase just came back from wherever he could buy guns most easily.

                So, yes, we need to talk. And it helps to remember that the NRA is no longer a membership organization -- it is a lobbying arm for the munitions industry.

                The truth is rarely pure and never simple. -- Oscar Wilde

                by Mnemosyne on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 08:57:35 PM PST

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            •  That's just a form of shutting down conversation (0+ / 0-)

              Claiming only experts can have an opinion, then throwing up tons of largely irrelevant jargon. It is actually a standard part of  the techniques of propaganda... google it.

              •  Please, no one said that you can't have an opinion (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fuzzyguy

                Knowing the subject matter you're talking about helps facilitate legitimate discussion however.

                If you don't understand some technical aspect, that's okay but in this specific context that was the problem with the AWB, it had nothing to do with functionality but looks. That was a failure of the congress, IMO.  They get paid to know the subject matter.

                As for your "google it", nope you make the claim, our site policy is you prove it.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Mon Dec 17, 2012 at 04:31:17 AM PST

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    •  I've met the enemy and the enemy is me. (6+ / 0-)

      Understood.

      If we don't call each other names, then we can have a good honest debate.  

      Who knows, maybe you'll change my mind, maybe I'll change yours???

      I'd ask you these things:

      Do you not believe if we propose gun bans that we will not lose more elections?

      Do you not believe we are fulfilling the Right's meme that "Their coming for your guns" won't impact our electability?

      Are there any other legitimate options that you are willing to discuss besides gun banning?

      We've continually proposed such things as legalizing pot, fully funded mental health services, living wage jobs, re-establishing our social safety nets and taxing the wealthy to pay for it.

      Are these not options any longer for you? Were they ever?

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 06:58:24 PM PST

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      •  All that's for another day. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, meagert

        As I am about to cook dinner.  This is,olive branch day, let's leave it there for now.

        "Empty vessels make the loudest sound, they have the least wit and are the greatest blabbers" Plato

        by Empty Vessel on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:05:22 PM PST

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      •  this was twigg's diary basically (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gerrilea, Onomastic, oldpunk, fuzzyguy
        We've continually proposed such things as legalizing pot, fully funded mental health services, living wage jobs, re-establishing our social safety nets and taxing the wealthy to pay for it.
        ....that we work toward a society where people are so better off they don't feel the need for arming/attacking/defending.

        That we can all agree on, that we should renew our basic assumptions with each other about...instead of pie fights and questioning validity and motives at the drop of the pixel.

        But that's the long game and people are right now in the grievous  moment by and large, and sincerely so I believe with likely a few exceptions*..none seen here btw

        Your points might be better heard in some time, right now, not so much....save some for later, you'll need it.

        And you know what, PBO was reelected, guns issues didn't derail his reelection, onward we go.

             So to those very few real trolls out there shit stirring*, the very few....haahaa, you lost.

        This machine kills Fascists.

        by KenBee on Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 07:19:17 PM PST

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