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View Diary: Is It Moral? (39 comments)

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  •  I am beginning to think that my statement (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blueoasis

    could be applied to countless bills, laws and policies that are coming out of the current iteration of our government - and that the political and government malpractice we are witnessing is not at all limited to the Republican Party's representation in DC.

    •  You're probably right (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      But it's hard to imagine passing any laws progressives would consider good with the House under the control of teabaggers.

      You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

      by tomjones on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 08:42:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's true, (0+ / 0-)

        but I'm not veery happy about what I am hearing.  I consider myself to have been very pragmatic.  I like President Obama, do not consider him to have betrayed us, but don't like this deal.  Is it the worst possible deal?  No.  But I don't think it is good either.  

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 08:51:29 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's fair (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TomP

          But I'm having trouble imagining what a good deal would look like. I don't think it exists.

          You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

          by tomjones on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:02:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We could start by addressing only the things (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, blueoasis

            that contribute to the deficit.  Social Security would not be one of them.

            •  Good idea (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TomP

              But it's too logical to be acceptable to Republicans.

              I don't know, I think by preferring a deal to no deal I'm just in the minority on this site. Won't be the last time. ;)

              You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

              by tomjones on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:13:05 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  A deal is ok, depending on what the terms are. (0+ / 0-)

                I don't like the terms now, but since Boehner rejected, they can only get worse for Dems if there is a deal.  I hope this wwas the last, best offer, but I fear it is not.

                Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

                by TomP on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:16:34 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yup, that is the rub (0+ / 0-)

                  As you note in your Krugman diary, there is definitely a point where a deal is worse than no deal, and if we aren't there now we are fast approaching it.

                  You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

                  by tomjones on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:37:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  If the republicans want to set fire to the room, (0+ / 0-)

                and they make a proposal of "burn the entire nation to the ground", does that make "give them a book of matches" a good counter-offer, or would we be better just negotiating from the starting point of "No matches for you"?

                Because this is about more than the specific cliff issue.  It's about the Republicans having a general policy of wanting Democrats to bow before their supposedly greater hyper-masculine macho power.  It has little to do with which policies are of concern at the moment; if it isn't a fiscal cliff, it's something else.

                They need to be called out publicly on their lack of decency, and just told "no, your starting point isn't worthy of the attention of intelligent, caring, moral people."

                I feel that even though it will hurt many many millions of people to go over that cliff, we should.  It took over 50 years for the Republicans to get a stranglehold on things.  We need to be working on a 50-year strategy to pull it back.  And to do that we need some base principles, chief among them "I do not negotiate with terrorists."  If we never stand for anything, they just keep pulling the starting point of negotiations closer to them.

      •  Then allow the gridlock to continue. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        blueoasis

        Don't pass laws.

        The White House has lost some credibility by offering up Social Security cuts in their latest deal.  But its not too late to get it back by simply taking it off the table now that Boehner has rejected this deal.

        Maybe we have to live with two more years of short term hardship if we want the long term integrity of important programs preserved.

        What's most fucked up about fiscal policy over the past 12 years is that everything has been set up to spend big on pointless wars and to defer payment to people who will inherit this country down the road.

        In that light, maybe we should all pay now.  Let's go for it.  Let's allow the Republican intransigence to take us into economic downfall and then do what we should have done which is to have a complete economic and political reset.  I keep remembering the claims made in support of propping up the banks.  If we let them fail, we would not have access to credit and growth.  Had we let them fail, it would have sucked for everyone, no doubt, but I am not sure the Koch Brothers would be this powerful.  I know that we didn't get access to credit anyway - not those of us on Main Street.  

        Anyway, if Obama and the Democrats are going to participate in dismantling Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid, I'm not sure why I wasn't working for Romney.  He's an asshole, and he's a liar, but everyone understood that he wasn't lying about his desire to end the social safety net.  He intended to dismantle it.  We knew that to be true.

        Anyway, its all good.  Crocodile tears will be shed to make us feel better.  We will be asked to view the President as a victim so as to distract us from the mass victimization of millions of average citizens around this country.

        We will all forget The Great Society one chip at a time.  Then we'll put Obama up onto Mt Rushmore and build a bunch of resorts all around the monument.  The workers will make a dollar an hour, have their on-property room and board taken out of their wages along with the cost of their meals.  Gun clubs will be paid to secure the workers and protect the patrons.  They will carry AK-47s.  Really looking forward to returning to the old values of self-reliance in America.

        •  Wow, that's bleak (0+ / 0-)

          I think you've just illustrated perfectly why I can no longer consider myself a progressive.

          You never trust a millionaire/Quoting the sermon on the mount/I used to think I was not like them/But I'm beginning to have my doubts -- The Arcade Fire

          by tomjones on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:15:47 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, bummer. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tardis10

            It is more and more apparent that thinking about the real downstream effects of the cuts and policies that are coming from both Republicans and Democrats currently is a complete downer.

            All of the data and all of the trend lines, point to American being in decline and these people are doing their best to help that along.

            I've encountered enough people over the past few days to understand that most people would rather have this country descend into the miserable and lawless condition of Somalia than give up than enact reasonable gun regulation.

            Seen enough politicians enacting and selling destructive policies that will more and more turn workers of all kinds in this country into indentured servants.

            Witnessed attacks on hungry, unemployed and elderly people.

            Watched a political party field a bunch of lunatic candidates only to settle on the one who thought he would appeal to the widest audience, but hopeful that he'd be just as into kicking dogs and killing puppies as they are.

            Racism, callous disregard for fellow citizens, bigotry and many other very ugly trend lines are emerging and these views are being given "equal time" as if they are somehow acceptable.

            I'd say we are at a low in this country - the question is can we really tolerate going any lower?

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