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View Diary: What gun control does the Second Amendment allow? (226 comments)

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  •  Clarification (5+ / 0-)
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    SilentBrook, hazzcon, sfbob, fisheye, Debby

    everyone's playing on "originalist" turf.  Originalism as applied, and the notion of interpreting constitutional text based on the commonly understood meaning of the terms at the time of ratification, could not be more different in this case.  

    I like to apply the WJMAFM test, or "Was James Madison a Fucking Moron," to questions of originalism.  The Heller majority paradoxically believes that one should defer to his judgment at all times, and that he was a fucking moron.  Originalism is nice in theory, but it's a black box.  My version of the black box is the interpretation most consistent with historical practice and to resolve ambiguous questions in favor of James Madison not trying to fuck us from the grave with institutionalized lack of common sense.  

    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

    by Loge on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:03:55 AM PST

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    •  Read the Heller dissents (11+ / 0-)

      They, too, are based on the more liberal justices' different understanding as to what the Second Amendment was intended to protect.  All nine Justices pulled what they wanted from the box.

      •  Sure (1+ / 0-)
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        the idea that the Constitution exists to serve the needs of society as it evolves recognizes this and is comfortable with this.

        That said, with the caveats about how history at a high level isn't really an objective science, Breyer actually picks out relevant stuff instead of what Scalia does, throw a bunch of historical documents against the wall.  The majority simply didn't engage the question of whether people were speaking of the role guns played in society (freed slaves had to be able to shoot hogs) versus whether this was of Constitutional import.

        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

        by Loge on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:20:34 AM PST

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    •  The Constitution was written by slave owners (3+ / 0-)
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      ExStr8, SoCalSal, CA wildwoman

      whose fastest way to the polling place was on horseback. It is long over due for update but that may not happen in my lifetime or ever. We desperately need election reform (preferential or IRV voting), campaign reform, and an emphasis on the role of a free press in facilitating (not entertaining or dis-informing) citizen's to participation in their democracy.

      We the people, with the Supreme Court as final arbiter, need to decide how to apply our constitution. The Second Amendment clearly indicates that gun rights should come with gun responsibilities. It is a national tragedy that we've let the NRA and right-wing justices ignore the first three words of the God damned amendment:

      A well regulated ....
      I supect that meant something along the lines of "trained" at the time. I personally would like to see military grade hardware only used by the military. The rest of us are entitled to as many muzzle loading rifles and pistols as we want as long as we show up on the village green once a month for muster and drill.

      I'm flexible on the muster and drill part. Substitute its modern day equivalent or require at least as much insurance and licensing as it does to operate a motor vehicle.

      Regarding the rest, I am serious. No civilized country experiences the steady pounding of gun massacres that we do in the U.S.

      Reaganomics noun pl: belief that unregulated capitalism can produce unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources and we the people can increase revenue by decreasing revenue.

      by FrY10cK on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:37:51 PM PST

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      •  "Well-regulated" did NOT mean ... (0+ / 0-)

        "trained", it meant "in good working order"; i.e. able-bodied men with working weapons.

        "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

        by Neuroptimalian on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 05:41:38 PM PST

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        •  "Well regulated" meant "not a mob" (3+ / 0-)
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          akmk, jjohnjj, ChurchofBruce

          The founders were not idiots and were terribly fearful of anarchy.   On of Washington's first acts as President was in fact to disarm a non well-regulated milita in what became known as the Whiskey Rebellion.

          •  Agree. "Under command of lawful authority" (1+ / 0-)
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            has always been my take on it. Can't you hear General Washington saying, "Captain, if you cannot regulate your troops, I shall replace you with someone who can!"

            I'm willing to expand the concept of "militia" to crime prevention, but if our citizen-vigilantes want to do anything more than "observe and report", I want them and their weapons to be damn well regulated.

            Have you noticed?
            Politicians who promise LESS government
            only deliver BAD government.

            by jjohnjj on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:00:15 PM PST

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