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View Diary: Christmas comes early for Boehner (516 comments)

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  •  Even if Obama is bluffing (6+ / 0-)

    It's a very, very dangerous bluff that even if it "succeeds" in this round of deal-making by leading to a decent deal we can support, only makes things worse down the line by putting cuts to benefits on the table for the first time in, like, ever, even if they're not actually cut this time around.

    Obama, it is increasingly clear, is a foolish and weak negotiator, and person. Talks a pretty good game (usually), but followup is quite pathetic. What fantasy policy and political world he inhabits, I have no idea.

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:01:06 AM PST

    •  I understand this completely (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sleepwalkr

      But he's sitting there looking at a terrible deal where tax cuts expire on all of us, and there are cuts to significant programs anyway. He also put in this new proposal a 2 year halt on the dealt ceiling, which, even if Boehner conceded on the tax cuts, they were going to use in months to start this whole process again, with even worse repercussions than the fiscal cliff. I'm just reading these comments and I understand Social Security is a big deal, but the concessions Obama is asking for (debt ceiling, more stimulus, unemployment insurance) would never happen from the Republicans without entitlements getting slashed. So there's nothing to now stop Obama from saying OK, you rejected this, than in a deal where I don't get the economic stimulus, you're not getting entitlement reform. That's what negotiating is. I don't think it equates with him being strong or weak, it's a product of a deal they made in 2011 when they didn't want to actually do anything because of an upcoming election.

      •  You don't get it (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milton333, mrkvica, apimomfan2

        You assume that, having rejected this most generous offer from Obama, Boehner has empowered Obama to now offer a less generous one with no benefits cuts. In theory, were Obama a good negotiator, a BIG maybe. But since he's not one, this will almost certainly lead to an even MORE generous offer by Obama, and several more rounds of this until Boehner gets an amazing deal in exchange for some short-term chump change for our side.

        Boehner, having long since figured Obama out, is playing him like a violin. I can't believe that Rachel Maddow, a very smart person, once said that Boehner is bad at his job. Quite the opposite, he only seems to be bad at it (which is I think at least partly by design). He's actually very good at it because he almost always gets what his side wants in the end.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:29:15 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't understand how capitulation/sell out (14+ / 0-)

      is a bluff.

      In poker, when I am bluffing, I am trying to say I have a better hand rather than tell the other guy he can beat me.

      Can you explain how this bluff is a bluff?

      •  It doesn't have to be a good bluff to be a bluff (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrkvica

        in the bluffer's mind. I never said Obama was a good bluffer. But the way it might work, as Obama might see it, is for him to offer Boehner a really good deal (for Boehner) but not quite good enough for his caucus, forcing him to reject it and making Obama look like the more "reasonable" and "serious" negotiator, and presumably empowering him to be able to extract a better deal (for us) in the end. It's never worked in the past and is unlikely to ever work in the future, but I get the sense that this is Obama's so-called "long game". Which is no game at all, unless you're willing to skip over an entire generation or two to get to that progressive promised land.

        But Obama is no Moses, let alone MLK.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:24:45 AM PST

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        •  It has to be a good bluff (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Williston Barrett

          to be a good bluff though.

          •  And it has to be a tautology to be a tautology (0+ / 0-)

            :-)

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:30:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No its not tautological (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              milton333, mrkvica, apimomfan2

              And part of the problem I have with your comment is that the last 4 years have happened. This isn't a bluff. this is what he wants and people are making excuses for the President. That's the point I am trying to get at.

              The Obama extremists (not saying you because I am just using an analogy here) are fond of saying people can not read the President's mind. But overtime, if one keeps saying he's a weak negotiator, etc. rather than calling a duck a duck-t hat if a t hing repeatedly happens- the occams razor applies- that its what was intended to happen.  What you are doing is to in fact try to read the president. I don't think he's bluffing. I think his history tells us he's using this as a strategy to get what he really wants. Which are the cuts. My evidence is the last 4 years.

              •  There's no way to tell in the end (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mrkvica, apimomfan2

                Either explanation could work, the fundamentally dishonest conservative Dem posing as a fighting progressive yet curiously MIA when there's actual fighting to be done, or the weak progressive Dem posing as a fighting progressive yet curiously MIA when there's actual fighting to be done.

                Same outcome either way.

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:41:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

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