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  •  Orwellian (66+ / 0-)

    Only an ideologue would push so strongly to undermine the New Deal.  Look at the people who are behind this whole thing.  They are ideologues.  And by relentlessly working toward this, by selling out the people who worked so hard to support him and who voted for him, he demonstrates that he is in fact an ideologue.  It's just not the type of ideologue that this party normally produces.  He is a Third Way, corporatist, 1% ideologue.  

    He uses populist rhetoric to get elected but his actions scream conservative, corporatist, oligarchic, imperialistic ideologue with a side order of liberalism on some social issues.  Corporatists and imperialists don't give a shit about most social issues as long as they don't take away from their profits.  It's all about the wealth and power.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 11:56:55 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  no, you are ideological (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larsstephens

      and that is why you see it that way

      just like how Pat Robertson sees everyone who not a christian as someone against god

      but anyway.

      so long and thanks for all the fish

      by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:18:28 PM PST

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      •  You you have no ideology? (21+ / 0-)

        That sounds to me like a character flaw rather than a plus.

        If you have no ideology then you have no principles to stand on and you're just doing what ever is politically convenient.  That seems like a bad thing to me.

        From what I can see the president does have an ideology, and it's neoliberalism, although a less severe version than we see in many other places.

        The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

        by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:41:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  yes, my jesus freak parents say the same thing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens

          not having spiritual beliefs is a character flaw in their view

          they can't imagine how anyone could have values or principles unless they are rooted in religious beliefs

          you are the EXACT same as them.  you can't imagine how someone could have values and principles unless they are rooted in ideology

          well, here's a news flash for you, oh true believer.  you can have values and principles without rooting them (or attaching them in any way) to specifics.  i love people, but i don't believe that Social Security is anything but an idea that a really big community came up with for solving a problem.  just like traffic lights and health insurance.  ways to meet a want or need.  they are not good or bad.  they are not sacred.  they are just a means to an end.  

          in practice i am a liberal, because i live in a country in which my options are limited and frankly, the only options i see that are even reasonable are from liberals.  but if conservatives provide ways to do things that i think are better and supporting them doesn't cause some kind of other net damage, then i'll get right behind them.  why not?  conservatives are not evil people with evil ideas.  there is no fight between dark and light.  just a struggle for how to do thing in a community.  

          am i in the wrong place to not be ideological?  is my being here like being in a church and being agnostic?  probably.  but i am not alone here.  i'd say that most people here land within a range of being very ideological to not ideological at all.  this diary was written by someone who's very ideological.  i don't agree at all with what i think his true meaning of his title is (that Obama can't be trusted and he told us so, but we were too blind to see it).  probably some people are blind, but i don't think most people are.  but, i guess seeing things the way i do makes me an Obama 'loyalist'.  lol.  like this is the french fucking revolution or something.  

          so long and thanks for all the fish

          by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 02:57:22 PM PST

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          •  See here's the thing (11+ / 0-)

            You claim to value people, but you also claim to do it for absolutely no reason.  Are you really saying that you value things for no reason?  You just happen to love people so that's what you focus on?  I simply don't believe that.

            You, like most of the neo-liberals, pretend that you don't have an ideology because you want to tar others as being irrational because they have an ideology.  Instead you claim to be motivated by some sort of practical or pragmatic or other nonspecific position that is convenient in arguments because you get to pretend like you have no real attachment to the issue while you obviously care so much that you'll compare me to a fundamentalist.

            i'd say that most people here land within a range of being very ideological to not ideological at all.
            Most people here fall in a range of having a consistent ideology that they explicitly tout to having an inconsistent ideology that they deny.  You fall in there somewhere as do I.

            Every time I hear someone claim that they don't have an ideology I hear "I agree with the dominant ideology of the moment." Because that's really what they're saying.

            that Obama can't be trusted and he told us so, but we were too blind to see it
            I see it more as saying that we should take Obama at his word when he says he wants to cut social security and other entitlements.  It has nothing to do with trust, it has to do with pointing out that the president is not liberal.  And before you tell me that he never claimed he was liberal I already know that, but there's too many on both sides that conveniently ignore that.

            The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

            by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:19:15 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  love doesn't require religion or ideology (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens

              if you think that it does... i don't know what to say other than that you aren't looking around at the world that you live in to see the truth.  go look at animals other than humans and watch their behavior toward each other.  especially other primates.  go look at little kids and how they love their family and friends before they are even mentally capable of understanding abstract concepts such as love and value let alone religion and ideology.  love and value exist without any religion or ideology.

              my dog would run up to me when i was a little kid and try to comfort me when i fell down and hurt myself.  he didn't require any liberal ideas to do that.  

              you know, it's this belief (and that's all it is, a belief) that people who don't share your ideas don't have the same (or better) capacity for your values and principles is probably the biggest cause of division in this country and in the world.

              so long and thanks for all the fish

              by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:30:51 PM PST

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              •  Sigh, ah yes, ignorance is bliss (8+ / 0-)

                you really do think you have no ideology and you call it practicality or pragmatism.

                you know, it's this belief (and that's all it is, a belief) that people who don't share your ideas don't have the same (or better) capacity for your values and principles is probably the biggest cause of division in this country and in the world.
                No, the biggest cause of division is peoples actions that hurt others.  And seriously, reread what you just wrote: that's part of an ideology.  Tolerance.  That's specifically part of a neoliberal, multicultural ideology.  The problem is that you've been convinced that ideology is bad for so long that you are loathe to admit that maybe you have one.

                And I'd add that I'm absolutely sure that you're just as capable of love or honesty or any other of the numerous values I hold to be important as I am.  Possibly even more so than I am, although I don't know you so who can say which ones exactly.  I form an ideology based on those things, and you obviously have toe, based on what's out there to choose from.  Neoliberalism is a nice one because it lets you sit above the fray and allows for a lot of intellectual and emotional leeway.  You can be mostly conservative but as long as you're tolerant then you fit right in there.

                And you get the added benefit of being better than all those ideologues.  It's great!

                The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:40:49 PM PST

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                •  That's his total schtick (5+ / 0-)

                  ...when he's not a "victim" of false accusations. Pick any topic.

                  Meanwhile, you handled this with much kindness and revealed yourself as very principled.


                  A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

                  by Pluto on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 05:04:56 PM PST

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                  •  It's far from just him (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JesseCW, Chi, joanneleon, Pluto, Brown Thrasher

                    And I handled it in as honest and open a way that I know how, because there are a lot of people out there who really, truly believe they don't have an ideology.

                    The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                    by AoT on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 05:16:59 PM PST

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                    •  life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness (0+ / 0-)

                      and having a say in how my community is managed

                      that's my ideology.  everything else is just details.  

                      social security is just a way our national community decided to manage keeping people who can't work from abject poverty.  medicare is just a way our national community decided to manage keeping people who are retired from suffering from sickness and injurty because they can't afford to pay for medical care themselves.  

                      yay.  congratulations for us that we came up with a working solution to those problems.  but that's all they are to me.  i am not committed to preserving or advancing them.  and not because i have any kind of competing commitment.  

                      which is what you guys think is the only reason why someone wouldn't commit to advancing them or at the very least protecting them.  and that is because you guys think that people are either for or against them.  like we're talking about being for or against genocide.  but it's not like that for people for whom the idea of using social security and medicare is nothing more than the idea that we are all going to drive on the right or left side of the street.

                      the difference between adopting an idea and adopting an ideology is that ideas don't have power over you.  ideology does.  ideology requires personal commitment to a specific idea.  well, sorry, but i am not personally committed to any political ideas beyond what i listed at the beginning of this comment.

                      so, you are right, i do have ideology.  it's just incredibly bare bones compared to yours.

                      and for the record... that's true of the majority of people in this country.  they have a very bare bones political ideology.  so bare, that for all intents and purposes, they call themselves non ideological.

                      meanwhile, there's the people who are so ideological that they think they are the only people with a clue and that that gives them not only the right but the obligation to do all the thinking for everyone.  like Tom Cruise here.

                      so long and thanks for all the fish

                      by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 08:47:11 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  They are working solutions (0+ / 0-)

                        and that's the point. I support them ideologically because they work to help older people who have retired.  If this compromise happens then it's going to hurt older people.  It sounds like we should be on the same page on this.  You want to help people, I want to help people, we should both be pissed that a program that works to help people is being cut.  I certainly don't support social security for any ideological reason other than the fact that it works.  Honestly, from an ideological stand point, I'd prefer to see a solution that didn't come from the government, but we don't have that, so this is what we're stuck with if we don't want old people to go hungry.

                        And that's the betrayal here.  Not that Obama doesn't like a program, but that he's trading old people's well being so that some taxes don't go up and military spending doesn't get cut.

                        The revolution will not be televised. But it will be blogged, a lot. Probably more so than is necessary.

                        by AoT on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:55:28 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

          •  No, 21st century American revolution coming soon (0+ / 0-)

            no ideology means no direction, go in circles or useless.

      •  Ah (29+ / 0-)

        yup.  Good argument.

        You haven't argued anything except a "no, you are!" empty rhetoric.  

        Show me how what I claim is not true.  

        Here is just one example but I could give you a dozen at least if I thought you might actually have an open mind.  You've got a president who is talking about a cut in corporate tax rates too now, among all of this mess (a right-wing wet dream) and tax code reform, most likely flattening the tax code (a 1% wet dream). Corp profits are at record highs. For thirty years the 1% has been grabbing a huge percentage of any gains.  The little guy? Been getting almost nothing.  And the tax cuts to the 1% have been on the backs of the little guy.

        Income inequality is at a record high.  It looks like he will get a little bit back from the people who have so enormously much more than everyone else.  And they get to keep some of their tax breaks, for now, we don't know for how long that will last.  A little money in the pocket now but in return, he takes from our future.  He also takes, from many of us, the earned benefits we've paid into for decades.  Long term losses for the 99%.  And in the process, he sets a precedent that no other Democratic president has ever set, so future presidents will feel free to keep chipping away at one of the only good programs this country has left.  It's a huge price to pay.  It's immensely unfair.  Just look here and tell me that the blue line guys need to give up even more than they have already lost, or has already been stolen from them.

        image[1]

        Only an ideologue could expect such a thing from people and could work so hard at doing it, and could deceive and lie so much along the way.


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:45:17 PM PST

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        •  no, you just don't understand people (0+ / 0-)

          who don't think the way you do

          and if you think that my comment was a deflection, it's because you can't see how clearly what i said is true of you, because you are an ideologue.  like a religious person who can't understand how saying that they believe in god because they have faith doesn't make any sense.

          but i am not slamming ideologues.  i'm just saying that some people are not.  and people should accept the fact that Obama is not an ideologue, because they can figure out what to do about what he does best if they know the truth.  and i know that many of you can't accept that truth, because you can't accept that the world isn't divided into those who are right and those who are wrong.

          so long and thanks for all the fish

          by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:01:33 PM PST

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      •  You seem to be conflating "sane, moderate", (13+ / 0-)

        "non-extreme" with "not ideological."

        You aren't a moderate, you aren't a pragmatist, you don't have seem to have a very good understanding of some of the words and concepts at play here, and you are very, very ideological.

      •  Yeah, because that's the same. (24+ / 0-)

        Didn't you write a diary the other day extolling the excellence of President Obama based on a picture?

        Doesn't this whole crapping all over Social Security thing, perhaps, get in the way of that?

        Who cares what the fucking Republicans would vote for? They'd vote for cooking poor children and exporting them as delicacies if they had the chance. -- Jim P

        by Colorado is the Shiznit on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 01:28:37 PM PST

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        •  the other day was yesterday, colorada. yesterday. (0+ / 0-)

          and the diary was a picture of the president comforting children of a family who's child was shot to death on friday

          i wrote that Obama is a good person and that if there was any doubt all one had to do was look at the picture and see for themselves that it's true.

          but you already knew that, so, i take your comment as just a snarky dig.  

          so long and thanks for all the fish

          by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 03:13:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Patently ridiculous (7+ / 0-)

            You don't think it would be possible to find pictures of a happy George Bush surrounded by smiling children?

            Soviet and Nazi propagandists specialized in those types of pictures of Stalin and Hitler. That's not to compare Obama to those tyrants but is just to say that the picture was meaningless. The same man who was surrounded by those children has also given the orders to fire drones that have turned other children into dead pieces of  torn meat and flesh.

            Your authoritarian leader-worship is embarrassing and childish.

            •  Very typical of right wing neurology (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW, Dallasdoc

              ...where there is a great deal invested in the authority of Rush, Fox, or whatever. Certain analytical lobes are shut down. Concepts or comparisons that might cause a psychic crisis or cognitive threat are deflected by neural gatekeepers in the brainstem.

              In watching this process in certain Republican candidates, I have come to the conclusion that they had no idea that they were lying. Romney, for example, does not know that to this day. For me, that was the scariest part -- and why I now demand brain scans of all presidential candidates showing pathways of analytical processing. High-level sociopathy (lack of empathetic functioning) show right up, as well.


              A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five. -- Groucho Marx

              by Pluto on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 05:33:06 PM PST

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            •  you don't give a flying fuck about dead children (0+ / 0-)

              the picture was taken by the parents of a child who was shot to death on friday and posted to their facebook page

              it brough the parents and those children in the picture some comfort to be visited by the president

              but you clearly don't care about the children in that picture or the parents who took the picture

              don't fucking talk about caring about dead children.  you don't even KNOW what caring about children FEELS like or you wouldn't have vomitted out your disgusting accusation that the picture was like Nazi propoganda

              you PRETEND to get outraged about foreign children, but you don't even NOTICE the children who just lost their sibling a few days ago

              complete and utter bullshit.

              and for the record, CT Hank, i find my authoritarian leader-worship to be charming

              so long and thanks for all the fish

              by Anton Bursch on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 09:05:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Armed with a law degree from Harvard... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Larsstephens

      he became a community organizer in Chicago.

      Does that really strike you as someone who is an oligarchic, Orwellian, corporatist ideologue hell-bent on destroying Social Security?

      I mean, if President Obama really is everything you say -- and he isn't -- wasn't there a much easier path for him to live the good, corporate life, like maybe working for a blue-chip law firm upon graduating from arguably our most prestigious university?

      Or is he so devious in your mind that the whole "community organizer" thing was just one more brick in his road to taking over the universe?

      How about I believe in the unlucky ones?

      by BenderRodriguez on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 12:36:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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