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View Diary: "Your Papers Please".... Comes to America (133 comments)

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  •  "Officer, am I free to leave?" (17+ / 0-)

    Disclaimer:  IANAL

    If the answer is 'no,' then you are being detained.  In some states, this means you are required to tell the officer your name, and nothing else.   In no jurisdiction do you have to explain to the officer what you are doing or where you are going.   You do not, for example, have to 'prove' to the officer you were just out walking your dog.

    If you are being detained, it must be for probable cause, not simply for your refusal to answer the officer's questions.

    •  Reasonable suspicion (11+ / 0-)

      Probable cause is the standard for warrants and arrests--based on the facts, it is more likely than not that the individual has committed a crime.

      Reasonable suspicion is the standard to conduct an investigatory stop--a rational explanation, based on articulable facts, that a suspect is involved in criminal activity.

    •  That phrase is used to summon the general (7+ / 0-)

      definition of "custody" used by the Supreme Court - that the person is not free to leave, or iirc reasonably believes that they are not free to leave.  Although it sounds informal, it's actually quite precise when asked in that manner, and in the vast majority of law-abiding officers, who have probably been taught that language at the academy, their minds will tick over to that training and the idea is that they'll ask themselves "Hrm, lawful detention?  yes/no."

      Probable cause relates to arrest, not detention.  A person can be detained but not arrested for some reasons that most of us consider pretty mundane in the end.  I'm tired and sick but, to try to invent an example, if you find yourself in the middle of a melee where numerous people are, say, stabbed (the injuries need to be severe, not just a shouting match), the police get a very brief time to detain everyone at that melee to determine who was and wasn't involved and who was there as a witness.  (Depending on circumstances, that very brief period where detention without arrest is permitted may run out within minutes.)  Those cases don't come to the SCOTUS as often because people do not tend to take a 10 or 15 minute delay to the Supreme Court, but if I felt up to looking it up, I could surely find some times when that brief time was exceeded by enormous amounts.

      I also suspect that a lot of stop & frisk cases have tested the issue of detention, but I am totally unfamiliar with those lines of cases.

      Also, if you are being cited and released, you're detained but not under arrest (e.g. while an officer is writing a speeding ticket).  There, however, the citation requires probable cause that tends to also pass to the detention.

      "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

      by auron renouille on Tue Dec 18, 2012 at 10:04:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I was in the mall in Clackamas OR last week. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        StrayCat, sfbob

        I beat feet out through the Barnes and Noble at the first sound of gunfire, but many people were trapped in individual stores when the metal grates came down and closed them in.  Then hundreds of Police arrived, and had to "determine who was and wasn't involved", and that held up one of my acquaintances for about six hours.  There were a lot of people in the mall, Christmas shopping, but it seemed like a mighty exercise in grandstanding, once the shooter was found ( within minutes).

        When banjos are outlawed, only outlaws will have banjos.

        by Bisbonian on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:23:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm OK with that circumstance given that no (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          auron renouille, volleyboy1

          particular individual was singled out but a process was in place for a (so far) uncommon event  that took a long time to complete.  From what I read it seems mall staff and local PD were actually practiced for that circumstance.  Glad you're OK BTW, not everyone was.

          The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking. A. A. Milne

          by Memory Corrupted on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:51:02 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yeah, I can't find fault with it either. But it (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1

            still frustrates (and probably frightens) the people who have to deal with it.  The cost of a civilized society, imho.

            "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

            by auron renouille on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 12:42:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Yeah, there's one of the exceptions. Very scary:( (0+ / 0-)

          When you have a crime scene that large, no police force has enough people to interview all of those potential witnesses (and, until the full story is certain, any potential accomplices) quickly.  I'd be at wit's end, to be in the middle of that only to be a guest of whatever store I happened to be trapped in for 6 hours :(.

          A lot of people (not saying you at all) don't realize that a lot of these shootings don't have 1 or 2 or 26 victims, they have hundreds, thousands of victims, people who were close by, who were close to those affected, who spent their day or days dealing with the aftermath.  For some of these things, you could probably find academic economists who could measure the loss everyone suffers as a result, not to mention all of the emotional harms.

          "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

          by auron renouille on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 12:40:38 PM PST

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          •  Several of my co-workers were in the mall (0+ / 0-)

            at the time.  Christmas shopping, and all.  One was getting her face done at the make-up counter in Macy's.  The woman doing her make-up was shot, injured.  She left her wallet, cell phone, purse, and ran.  Another was trapped in the back of the shoe store, as mentioned above.  Another performed CPR on the one girl that was critically injured.  Another was in Zales, wondering why the metal gates came down on all the other stores, but not that one, when the glass partition on the railing from the level above got shot, and all the glass came raining down on him.

            Estimates were that there were some 10,000 people in the mall at the time, all affected, to some degree.  Some (obviously) much more than others.

            When banjos are outlawed, only outlaws will have banjos.

            by Bisbonian on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:28:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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