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View Diary: I bought an AK47 online last night ... almost (updated) (250 comments)

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  •  Diary is incredibly deceptive (33+ / 0-)

    By shipping to an FFL dealer, whether for just the sale or the consignment, the buyer would still have had to have passed the NICS background check that comes with the transfer. The record of the sale (and the purchaser) would have gone on record for a certain number of years (7, if memory serves). The FFL dealer will also charge for the transaction.

    What can not be done for arms younger than 1898 (or black powder arms, which are exempt regardless of date of manufacture) is to have the arm shipped directly to the buyer, as the FFL paperwork and NICS check are still required.

    The scenario the diarist has presented is little different than going into a gun store with a specific weapon in mind, and having them special order it for you.

    And to top it off with a taste of irony, the firearm under discussion appears to be of the "post-ban" variety, that is, legal for new manufacture and sale had the 1994 ban remained in place. The thumbhole stock is the giveaway.

    (To the comments: the SKS is not the civilianized AK; it's a slightly older rifle designed by a different person. Civilianized AKs are AKs that are not capable of full automatic fire. Those whose receivers deemed by the BATF to be easy to convert to full automatic fire have been prohibited from import for some time; also, the conversion parts are Class III NFA controlled, and possession without registration is a serious felony).

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:35:42 AM PST

    •  Took the words right out of my mouth (16+ / 0-)
      Diary is incredibly deceptive
      and added a few as well.
    •  Diary makes it sound like an Amazon.com purchase. (17+ / 0-)

      and it's just not so...

      The key is that the purchase has to go through an FFL dealer.  You cannot have a weapon simply drop shipped to your doorstep. I've bought handguns on line through auction sites and at the end transaction you still have to go to your local FFL dealer and fill out the paper work and have the NICS check run.

    •  Missed opportunity, Robo. (10+ / 0-)

      Instead of beginning with an insult, you could have offered clarification, information. Engaged in respectful dialogue. Possibly gained some respect in the process.

      For the diary to be deceptive, the diarist would have to write facts s/he knows to be false.

      The sh*t those people [republicans] say just makes me weep for humanity! - Woody Harrelson

      by SoCalSal on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:25:49 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How is "diary is incredibly deceptive" (12+ / 0-)

        an insult? It is an accurate description of the text above - it creates a scenario by misleading the reader into thinking that the weapon would be acquired without a background check online.

        The very first comment after the tip jar shows that this inaccurate perception was successfully conveyed to its readership.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:34:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  speaking as one of the first 4 people to tip that (11+ / 0-)

          comment- I know zippo about guns like this and never tried to buy one. I'd rather read someone's experience in a diary to learn. This diary implied I could order one on Amazon or e-bay, easy as pie. If that's not true, then it was "incredibly deceptive." Thanks for the enlightening discussion in the comments, everybody. (I may be extra naive in that I rarely use amazon or e-bay either, except for research.)
              On the other hand, one teen from Judgement Ridge bought an incredible knife online, although that was quite a while ago and rules may have changed. Could the teen have bought a giant hunting knife in person on his own?

          •  Knife sales are almost completely (9+ / 0-)

            unregulated online on a Federal level, and mostly governed by state laws. You'll have to certify you're over 18 or something like that, usually, unless the state you're trying to ship to has stricter regulations.

            (Hell, I was buying swords at a martial arts supplier at flea market back when I was 16)

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:05:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I wrote this diary and I never said it you could (9+ / 0-)

            order one on amazon or ebay - I don't believe ebay lists guns  -

            It is interesting the way some have interpreted this. I was careful to add every step that I took.

            I honestly was surprised at how it worked - but remembered seeing a show a while back about how easy it is to buy guns on theses sites.

            Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

            by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:22:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I understand that you're not intending to (11+ / 0-)

              deceive. But you really don't understand what you've read, and in doing so, are seriously misleading people.

              Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

              by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:39:18 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Man, oh man (7+ / 0-)

                He wrote a diary explaining what he saw.  Implicitly and explicitly, he's inviting comments and feedback.

                Please re-read this passage in the diary:

                Any loopholes here? Should it be this easy? How can this process possibly be changed? There are so many websites that sell guns this way, it is so anonymous, it is almost worse than a gun show.
                I would wish that those who had more knowledge on the subject would courteously respond with something like, "I know you're new at this. Let me explain..."  There's a huge difference of intent between "misunderstanding" and "deceiving."

                Someone may flame me for being the courtesy cop but here's the deal:  A heck of a lot of people who are naive about guns are trying to figure out what's possible to protect us all against gun violence.  When their efforts are met with condescension or ridicule, it creates more barriers towards arriving a mutual understandings that will lead to less gun violence.   Remarkably, I expect even the NRA now understands that it has stop its former way of demonizing critics and instead have a public face that is more "gentle" in order to have more influence on outcomes.  It's all about the art of persuasion.

                •  They don't have to be courteous. (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  SoCalSal, rustypatina, trumpeter, cany

                  They have the guns, remember?

                  There's a huge difference of intent between "misunderstanding" and "deceiving."
                  This. But we're the ones who are being mean to the gun owners.

                  An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

                  by Debby on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:25:20 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Well, to be completely honest (6+ / 0-)

              you did NOT buy a gun online last night as your title says.  Heck, you even back-pedaled in the first sentence in your diary where you said "well, almost."  That kind of misleading/deceptive headline is an example of yellow journalism.

              If you had really tried to finalize the purchase you would have been forced to specify your local FFL as a shipping point.

              Though I've not used the site you mention, I have bought handguns on line from another site and my local FFL was forced to fax their license to the seller before the seller could release the weapon to be shipped.

              And as a kicker, the local FFL charges you a nuisance/convenience fee which can be upwards of $40-$50 for their time and trouble to receive the weapon, contact you to come get it, and the background check.

              •  It's not back-pedaling. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                SoCalSal, trumpeter

                Provocative headlines draw eyes. They're pretty common here and everywhere. In a very upfront matter, the diarist sets the scene from the first sentence.

                An unsuccessful shoe bomb attack resulted in nine years of inconvenience for every flier in the country. It would be nice to think [this diabolical act] might lead to some similar inconveniences. --mrblifil

                by Debby on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:28:47 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  you're right; it's not back-pedaling (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  fuzzyguy, Robert in WV, deedogg

                  it's outright BS.  one can be "provocative" without complete falsehoods.

                  at no point did the author buy an AK47 online.  therefore, the diary title is not factual.

                  does the license to be provocative and sensational trump the obligation to be factually accurate?  hell no.  and i further submit that if one cannot make one's point without hyperbole and sensationalism, one hasn't much of a point.

                  Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                  by Cedwyn on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:12:46 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Stop playing dumb (4+ / 0-)

          "Deceptive" connotes an intention to distort the truth. Inaccurate, wrong, incomplete, untrue...any of these might have served just as well (though you yourself can't really know if the gun wouldn't come to your door unless you'd attempted to repeat the diarist's experiment).

          If you didn't mean to be insulting, then cop to that, but please don't insult the intelligence of all here with multiple expressions of naive innocence. You picked a loaded word. It isn't the first time you've done it. The diary doesn't fit into your preferred narrative of how gun law is enforced, and so you have taken an overly aggressive tone. I hope you recognize that many people react to such a tone by becoming silent, and therefore calling people "deceptive" can stifle debate. Which I thought the members of your group welcome with open arms.

          •  It's not about fitting narratives. (5+ / 0-)

            The diary is factually wrong; and misleading its readership.

            Misinformation is what's stifling the debate here.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:37:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And intent? THAT was his intent? (0+ / 0-)

              Because if it wasn't, it was not deceptive.

              202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

              by cany on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:44:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, and since we're talking about "playing dumb" (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound, Cedwyn, fuzzyguy, deedogg

            How is this not deceptive?

            I did this to see if I could buy ANY gun w/out a background check online.  It appears that this process is similar to a gun show.
            How is a switch to a focus on the seller's shipping requirements, when sellers have never been required to submit to a background check, not deceptive?

            The background check on the buyer happens when the buyer picks up the weapon shipped to the FFL dealer. Who shipped the firearm is irrelevant.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 08:16:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So just to be clear (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SoCalSal

              despite protestations to the diarist that you did not intend to imply conscious intent to deceive, you are now finding evidence of conscious intent to deceive?

              I do not think that word means what you think it means.

              "I disagree" and "You might be wrong" are other ways to make your point without assigning motive.

              Further context: you realize people were shocked by the killing of kids, and are seeking answers. If you have the answer ("don't worry there will still be background checks" [the efficiency of which are another subject for debate]) then you should by all means bring that argument forth. Why you insist on provocation, when your prerogative as a self-described authority gives you the opportunity to teach is mystifying. I actually take comfort in your suggestion that a background check will still be required (though I take no comfort in the standards of said background check). But when you act like a scold it really turns me off of what you have to say and I had to overcome a lot of resistance to read your comments in order to gain proper understanding.

    •  IF the seller chose to ship it to me (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      Where is the background check? and if it isn't and automatic, then there isn't even a law to be skirted.

      And, really, I went through everything but putting a credit card into the final screen.  IF I chose another site and did it again, are you telling me there would be some other level of screening where someone would want my Soc Sec number and do a background check?

      Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

      by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:14:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The seller *CAN NOT* ship it to you. (13+ / 0-)

        From your own citation:

        The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you.
        The gun is shipped to an FFL dealer near you. You go to the FFL dealer. You fill out the paperwork. You submit to the background check. If you pass, you get your gun, after you pay the FFL dealer for the courtesy of the transfer service.

        Considering how completely you have misunderstood the process, and how badly many of your readers are being mislead because of your misunderstanding, you need to correct your diary.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:22:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  copied and pasted from how to sell on this site (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution, trumpeter

          please note - before the GA drop off options the option is TO SHIP IT YOURSELF.

          If you sell a gun you can:

          Ship it Yourself

          ... Or Use a GunsAmerica Dropoff Location

          How it Works
          Option 1 - Sell it Yourself

              The basic premise of the GA Drop Off Location is that a local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state. So you, as the true seller of the gun, have established a clear paper trail for the gun that you need not ever maintain (even if an FFL dealer gives up his license his bound book is turned into the ATF). This is the simplest approach because nothing changes with your interaction with GunsAmerica and the buyer. You get to describe the gun, decide who it is sold to and how much it is sold for. And if the gun doesn´t sell there is no transfer of the gun back to you. You also pay a simple up front fee, not a commission on the sale itself.

          Option 2 - Sell on Consignment

              Many of our GA Drop Off Location dealers will take the gun in on consignment for you and handle the sale completely. The gun may be sold in their store, on their website or through an ad at GunsAmerica. Those terms you work out with them and the fees for the sale are stated in advance. You also must take into account that the gun might not sell and may have to be transferred back to you. The dealer himself may want to buy the gun outright as well, so your options are varied from dealer to dealer.

          Click Here to find the closest drop off location

          FFL Dealers Click Here to become a GunsAmerica Drop Off Location

          Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

          by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:25:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  And you simply doesn't understand what's written. (13+ / 0-)

            Let me pull from your own quote and emphasize the imprtant parts.

            local FFL Dealer handles the transfer of the gun for you. That way the gun is legally out of your hands, into his "bound book", and out from him to another FFL dealer in the buyer´s state.
            The chain of custody in this case is:
            seller -> FFL dealer local to the seller -> FFL dealer local to the buyer -> background check and transfer paperwork -> buyer.

            At no point is it "shipped to you".

            You may have been able to pay for the gun, but it's not shipped to you, and isn't put into your hands until you submit to the background check.

            "On consignment" differs only in that a FFL dealer may get a customer requesting a specific gun for a special order, and goes to the online broker to find a source for it. And once again, the chain of custody and background check requirements are the same.

            The talk about paperwork simply means that it's the FFL dealers who become responsible for maintaining it (whether it's the transfer from seller to first FFL dealer, or between FFL dealers, or from the 2nd FFL dealer to you). The paperwork is still being kept, but it's being kept by licensed professionals, not the individual seller.

            Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

            by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 05:34:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  please, read the whole page (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          DefendOurConstitution, trumpeter

          This is AN OPTION FOR SELLERS.
          Option one is ship it yourself.

          Women are 51% of the population yet are represented in congress by barely 17%! Until our representation reflects the population, we risk sliding backwards .....

          by 51percent on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:21:23 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The seller could not legally ship to you... (12+ / 0-)

        They must ship it to a licensed dealer, or they're breaking the law.

        All shipping services I know of abide by those laws those laws.  As robo stated above, UPS won't even take the package if the destination isn't a licensed dealer or manufacturer.

    •  I think that's very unjust to the diarist. (4+ / 0-)

      He was trying to see how it works and went as far as he could without spending money to buy something he didn't want. Calling it "deceptive" implies intent on the part of the diarist.

    •  If the gun gets shipped to a licensed dealer (4+ / 0-)

      And the buyer has to go through the same checks as buying in person, with the same records kept, I really don't see a problem.

      The problem is even being able to buy a gun like this. It's not a hunting gun. There are other, more appropriate guns that can be used for protection, if you feel that's necessary.

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