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View Diary: Is Going Over The Cliff Necessary Now? (269 comments)

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  •  I am ready to do a full gainer cliff dive... (33+ / 0-)

    That will let us start over with a better congress and better prospects in 2013.

    "We are a Plutocracy, we ought to face it. We need, desperately, to find new ways to hear independent voices & points of view" Ramsey Clark, U.S. Attorney General.

    by Mr SeeMore on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 07:22:04 AM PST

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    •  If you're not willing to walk away... (44+ / 0-)

      you are not going to get a decent deal. I've learned that in shopping for car, house, etc.

      I wish White House would hire Armando as chief negotiator.

      Skepticism of all the elite institutions, not trust, is what required for successful leadership in this era. Digby

      by coral on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 09:07:41 AM PST

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      •  The "dirty little secret" is Obama WANTS to deal (20+ / 0-)

        He WANTS an excuse to cut Social Security (and then Medicare, Medicaid, etc.)  

        This isn't some sort of "faux pas" (or "fumble" as Armando put it) this is the President's crew doing exactly what it WANTS to do.

        We are seeing what the President WANTS to happen.  It's not that the big, bad, powerless Republicans are "forcing" the Democrats to give away stuff, Obama is OFFERING it!

        It's so "wrong" from a Democratic point of view, that people here are having a hard time wrapping their heads around that fact.  

        But we won't go off the cliff, and we WILL cut Social Security, because THIS IS THE OBAMA PLAN.

        Period.

        Because this is happening so close after an election we thought we "won," and after so many Dems rightfully "promised" to leave SS untouched, many here are in shock and denial.  

        But that shock will turn to anger, once people finally wake up and realize they have been played.  Played by an administration that had this intent BEFORE the election and hid that fact while it ran for re-election.

        •  I agree. (8+ / 0-)

          Who could have predicted?  Everybody.  David Mizner laid it out pretty well in his diary.

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          If money is speech, then speech must be money.

          by dkmich on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:31:22 AM PST

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        •  I agree, but that doesn't mean we (9+ / 0-)

          shouldn't fight it with everything we've got. So let's keep screaming and yelling and don't go down quietly if we do indeed go down the "Grand Bargain" hell hole.  The Obama apologists are going to do what they always do, and so be it. The rest of us will do what we have to do.

          If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - David Rees from "Get Your War On".

          by Oaktown Girl on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:31:26 AM PST

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          •  The time to fight this is during the primaries. (8+ / 0-)

            Any Democrat who votes for this crap pile of a "deal" should have a vigorous challenge at the earliest possible time.  It will inevitably be painted with the same memes as 2010.  But then again, if President Obama hadn't muffed the stimulous and actually fought for a Single Payer health care system maybe people on the left wouldn't have been so pissed off they stayed home.  

            "If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people." -Tony Benn (-6.38,-6.36)

            by The Rational Hatter on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:40:13 AM PST

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            •  Agree completely (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sunspots, YucatanMan, Oaktown Girl, elwior

              Obama always "seems" like a "good guy" to me, but he has so consistently played the hands dealt to him wrongly, that after a while you have to admit that either a: he's not as smart as I thought he was, or b: he not LIKE what I thought he was.

              If Obama had been even slightly more skilled a leader, we would have a Dem majority in the House and not even having this conversation.

              Makes me wonder now, how different things would have been with a Hillary in the White House.  Obviously, we'll never know.

            •  Cutting Social Security (0+ / 0-)

              Will so weaken Dems that primaries will be a waste of time.

          •  That's true (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Sunspots, Oaktown Girl, elwior

            Rather than just "complaining" (as I admit to doing) what is left of the "Democratic wing" of the Democratic Party needs to raise hell with the public, including their reps in Congress.  

            It's like if a tree falls in the forest and no humans are around to here it...

            Politicians think "we" (the public) might not notice that they're cutting Social Security because they're not "calling it" that, and there's "danger, danger" because of the "fiscal cliff..."  

            But I'm still smarting (and in a bit of shock) that this could ever come from a Democratic President in my lifetime.  I need to complain a bit to somebody who gets that shock and disappointment.

        •  I just don't agree that he thinks the chained CPI (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SME in Seattle, elwior

          is a really good idea on its own merits. Not that I have any more information than any of you have.  This is my reasoning:  there is not enough savings by using the chained CPI method of determining cost of living increases for social security to warrant an intelligent person's support, especially considering the political cost of this position. We do agree that he is intelligent, right?  It's a gimmick. It has to be.

          But why is he using this gimmick? That's the question I ask myself.  Even if he were a fiscal conservative, this isn't much of a way to conserve.  Why doesn't he go after military spending?

          I think this all kabuki theater yet again, and I'm in the dark about what's going on, who and why.  You all sound like you know, but I'm not so sure you do.

          The 'shift' is hitting the fan.

          by sydneyluv on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:58:26 AM PST

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          •  By the way, I'm with the jumpers. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Oaktown Girl, irmaly, Paper Cup, elwior

            The 'shift' is hitting the fan.

            by sydneyluv on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:01:04 AM PST

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          •  He's using the gimmick... (9+ / 0-)

            ... because his TEMPORARY 2% income tax cut isn't working fast enough to decimate the Social Security Trust Fund to coerce us to "choose" to go along with putting the Social Security Trust Fund money in the stock market so the borrowed funds wouldn't have to be paid back from when Dumbya [and/or whomever else] borrowed against it for their illegal and unconstitutional wars.  Those wars are still going on, money is in short supply, and they can't afford to pay the Soc Sec Trust Fund monies back.  If they default, no one's going to notice if our money is taken to Wall Street Casino to gamble our money away.  [Can anyone say ENRON..., as we wave goodbye to our collective Soc Sec money when it goes to untraceable offshore accounts when they rob us blind...?]

            Whereas the TEMPORARY Bushista tax cuts only benefited the ultra-rich from the get-go "so they could be job creators" [yeah, right...; wanna buy the bridge I have for sale?], the TEMPORARY Obama income tax cut also decreased the FISA contribution from us little peons [the rich's FISA contribution always had a cap on it].

            Financially, Obama has been a Republican all along, mentioning "fixing Social Security and Medicare" when he was still campaigning before the '08 election....

            Giving in to the Repukes is a Pavlovian response left over from the Bushista years when Congress got used to salivating (and giving in) every time Dumbya threatened to hold his breath when he wanted something done and blackmailed Congress into doing his bidding..., thus making them co-conspirators to aid and abet his war crimes and pay for them at the same time.  Obama continued his policies and retained the Bushista people.  The financial theories Obama is following are his own because he was never a good Democrat in anything but the D behind his name.

            Oh, and we're not supposed to remember that those Bushista and Obama tax cuts were meant to be TEMPORARY, so now they're talking about tax increases instead of "taxes going back to the rates they were before the TEMPORARY tax relief/cuts."

            I say:  Go over the cliff.  I remember the word TEMPORARY, even if idiotic reporters and political pundits don't.

            Oh, and NO chained CPI, and NO cuts to Social Security or Medicare or Medicaid...!!!  Social Security and Medicare have their own funds and do NOT contribute to the deficit.  If they're having problems paying back the Soc Sec Trust Fund regarding monies borrowed for the illegal and unconstitutional wars, then go after the corporations and put them back on a 90% tax rate like they had under Eisenhower since they are the only ones who benefited from the illegal and unconstitutional wars they did not pay for!!!

            I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

            by NonnyO on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:23:08 AM PST

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            •  Love your sig line! (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elwior

              Agree about going over the cliff.  Do not share your anger/anxiety until I see/hear more.

              The 'shift' is hitting the fan.

              by sydneyluv on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:02:27 PM PST

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              •  :-) Crashing Vor.... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Jeffersonian Democrat

                ... is one of the brightest at DKos.  The comment was made in a diary long ago and I asked at the time to use it, and it's been my sig line ever since.

                Four years of idiocy and Dems, starting with Obama, passing Repuke budgets.  I've had it.  I'm pissed.  Four more years ahead of us of this same thing where we get corporate Repuke financial arrangements shoved down our throat, most of it coming straight out of the corporate Repuke world that has invaded our government....?

                You know what corporations invading government means, right?  Since 2000:  Record-setting profits for oil corporations, military-industrial-congressional complex corporations, mercenary corporations, pharmaceutical and health insurance corporations [Medicare Part D: seniors and disabled people were told 'buy pharmaceutical insurance or else' - punishment never specified], medical corporations..., and there will be an increase in profits for insurance, medical, and pharmaceutical corporations thanks to Obamacare [everyone else told to 'buy private insurance or face a $1000 fine'].  Our medical care should have all been turned over to Medicare which is, in essence, a not-for-profit single-payer health insurance program [no overhead, no stockholders to pay, no executive bonuses to pay].  Corporations have taken over a whole bunch of government duties at several times the cost that government could/would charge..., and Casino Wall Street and Big Investment Bankers want to take charge of our Social Security Trust Fund (buh-bye to our collective money we've been paying into since we first went to work or that seniors or disabled people have been receiving as earned benefits).

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.
                -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
                -- Benito Mussolini

                Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity, quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace.
                -- Benito Mussolini

                Oh, if you like Crashing Vor's quote, you might also appreciate this [Just because he was a bloody dictator doesn't mean he can't be right sometimes.]:
                The history of saints is mainly the history of insane people.
                -- Benito Mussolini

                I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

                by NonnyO on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:24:44 PM PST

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          •  Let's hope it's only Kabuki theatre (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sydneyluv, DianeNYS, Khun David, elwior

            and that all this leaked information is just a sophisticated set of trial balloons so that PBO can say to Burner, "Hey!  My base won't let me do that, either.  So it's got to come off the table."

            It's just a symbolic issue for the GOTP, isn't it?  Just the first step down the slippery slope toward regaining the depths of the Gilded Age and shifting New Deal benefits to those who really deserve them -- the 1%.

            What haunts me is that the GOTP would be able to say truthfully that PBO and his fellow Dems cut SS & Medicare, not the GOTP.

            Can't tweet, so emailed PBO and my CongressCritter.  If it's a trial balloon, I'll play along and yell, "Hell, NO!."  If they're actually ready to sacrifice us, I want to go down screaming, "Hell, NO!"  That's not hysteria, that's a BOGO.

            Gulp.

            (-7.62,-7.33) Carbon footprint 12.6 metric tons. l'Enfer, c'est les autres.

            by argomd on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:34:35 AM PST

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        •  I agree, but many progressives didn't learn the (4+ / 0-)

          lessons from 2010, and 2011, so it's going to be interesting to see what happens this time.

          If Obama holds true to his nature, he will make a very bad deal, then try to change the subject quickly by  making a concession to progressives that may or may not happen...if only...all he needs is more contributions...maybe the XL pipeline, or maybe some concession on equal rights for unborn something or others....or...

          He is a master manipulator, and the Democrats are so naive and vulnerable.  We are only tasty fish swimming in a very small bucket to him...

        •  It ain't over till it's over! N/T (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Oaktown Girl, elwior

          Maybe it is music that will save the world - Pablo Casals

          by Palmetto Progressive on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 12:09:25 PM PST

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        •  I agree, but WHY? What makes Obama think that (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior, Jeffersonian Democrat

          reducing future SS benefits is a good idea?  What good does that do for anything?  

          Is it just more protection of the rich on his part (not raising the cap or eliminating the cap or...??)?

          Or does he think that providing people an ever decreasing amount of money to live upon (compared with the real cost of non-cat food living) is somehow good for them?  Good for the country?

          I wish I could just understand where the hell this comes from?  Why?

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:52:15 PM PST

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      •  If the choice is between the cliff and a Grand Bad (9+ / 0-)

        Bargain, let's jump!

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