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  •  well said - battle between corporate state and us (15+ / 0-)

    when Chris Hedges wrote that both candidates were the same on the big issues right before the election, even commondreams.org did not republish the article

    they publish almost all of his things

    but all of us were holding our breath that Romney would not win

    my wife would not talk to me if i didn't vote for Obama and here in Ohio, we had to win

    for those who can stand strong thoughts:

    The November election is not a battle between Republicans and Democrats. It is not a battle between Barack Obama and Mitt Romney. It is a battle between the corporate state and us. And if we do not immediately engage in this battle we are finished, as climate scientists have made clear. I will defy corporate power in small and large ways. I will invest my energy now solely in acts of resistance, in civil disobedience and in defiance. Those who rebel are our only hope. And for this reason I will vote next month for Jill Stein, the Green Party candidate, although I could as easily vote for Rocky Anderson of the Justice Party. I will step outside the system. Voting for the “lesser evil”—or failing to vote at all—is part of the corporate agenda to crush what is left of our anemic democracy. And those who continue to participate in the vaudeville of a two-party process, who refuse to confront in every way possible the structures of corporate power, assure our mutual destruction.
    http://www.truthdig.com/...

    *
    Then after the election Chris updated his book "The Death of the Liberal Class" with a reflection on the failure of the liberal class in the elections. This was published on commondreams.org

    http://www.truthdig.com/...

    •  Hedges is a fool (0+ / 0-)

      His analysis might be spot on, but his solution is silly and dangerous. There IS no way out of this mess outside the two party system, at least on the national level. Locally, sure, third party sounds great. But our only chance is by trying to apply whatever leverage we can on the two dominant parties, who have a long-term lock on political power that we have absolutely no way of changing, to move in better directions. We have allies in one party, and the other party's losing power, at least nationally, but eventually locally I believe. This is OUR "long game", and, really, the only game as I see it.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:35:12 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Apparently there is only one party (7+ / 0-)

        with two wings.

        •  See, it feels good to say such things (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mahakali overdrive, manyamile, FG

          But where does it lead us? Only a crazy person thinks that a Jill Stein or Rocky Anderson will EVER have a chance at becoming president. So what does voting for them instead of a Dem or Repub get you, in real-world terms, as opposed to in "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" terms, otherwise known as infantilism? How do we get from here to where we should be?

          This is a question that the actual far left has never been able to answer. Maybe because it doesn't want to, because it knows there is no answer, at least in terms of how it wants to do things. It's easy to stand back and yell "A pox on both houses", but what's the followup?

          There is none, obviously.

          What, armed rebellion? Sheer insanity.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 12:57:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Let's turn this around (10+ / 0-)

            and ask what the current duopoly, which you defend, has accomplished in dealing with some of the most urgent issues facing the world today, such as global warming?

            Decades have gone by, and nothing to significantly curtail greenhouse gases has been accomplished.

            Sticking to the path which has largely failed is not a solution. The only reason alternate solutions haven't worked is because people promote the meme they don't work. But the reality is the conventional electoral path is literally on a trajectory of killing us.

            As long as votes are taken for granted, which by your approach they certainly are, then we will fail to significantly change the trajectory. Politicians have long ago worked out the various methods of posturing/musical chairs/kabuki theater to render bills in congress ineffectual, and thus convince us they care about the issues, only to find ways to sell us out over and over again.

            There are cogent rebuttals to your arguments, but unfortunately, anyone who would try is doing so under the threat of censorship and banning, so lengthy, well developed arguments will not likely be found here.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:10:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You haven't answered my question (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              manyamile, FG

              And if the only way to answer it is to risk getting banned, then you have no answer that I'm willing to contemplate. We're talking Communist Party idiocy, I'm guessing, or something along the lines of V. Sheer lunacy.

              If revolution is your solution, then why bother wasting your time here? And if it isn't, I see no path to true reform except through the two party system. Which, btw, has, however slowly and haltingly, led to gradual improvement in peoples' lives. E.g. the Sherman Act, universal suffrage, the New Deal, Great Society. If this wasn't good enough for you, well, in the real world it never is and never will be. In a democracy, you have to work with the party system, if not within it, then by applying pressure to it from outside it. Kindly show me when this has ever not been the case, or any other way of doing things that's better.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:22:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Lots of strawmen. You're arguing with yourself. (4+ / 0-)

                I don't see revolution occurring, although that would certainly be welcome.

                As to the new deal, we're on the brink of gradually eroding that as we speak. And such solutions as the minimum wage have been made ineffective by not keeping current with the CPI (speaking of which).

                In the last several decades, what has been done to improve the lives of the poor and middle class?

                When I was a kid, a college education was either free or very affordable. Now it is beyond the reach of many. Owning a home has become more unlikely today then when I was young. Economic inequality between the wealthy and the rest of us is getting wider and wider. Wages are stagnant. The standard of living is getting worse year by year.

                This... is the result of your approach of sticking to the same tired electoral process.

                It's easy to keep parroting that nothing works except sticking to the course. Except that sticking to the course has failed, and to repeat myself, we're on a trajectory of destruction.

                It's time to demand a change of course. And frankly, your ridicule of anyone who wants to try something new is part of the problem.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:36:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yet more empty blather (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mahakali overdrive

                  Either state what you believe would work or it's impossible to take you seriously. It's not enough to point to what you claim hasn't worked. You have to explain what you believe WILL work. And you have not, hiding behind vague references to bannable ideas. In which case, if your ideas about how to fix things are not allowed to be discussed here, and you're not interested in discussing ones that are allowed, why are you even here, for fun, or to be the site's Greek chorus or conscience? Puhleeze.

                  "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                  by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:57:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Don midwest, aliasalias, lotlizard

                    You, as well, have to explain what will work. The status quo answers have failed, and you have no alternative. Thus, you are becoming complicit in that failure, and all you have as an answer is insult and ridicule of alternatives.

                    It is quite possible that NOTHING will work, so duped has become the populace. We may end up going off the real cliff, the environmental one that has severe consequences.

                    Not to mention peak oil, and the water crisis, all of which is getting short shrift by the duopoly. I have no miraculous solution, although there are alternatives. Those alternatives would require a large number of participants. It would take resolve, lots of time, and would require getting off our complacent duffs. But your offered path is very likely destined to lead to calamitous consequences.

                    It is time for bolder solutions. Your approach hasn't solved anything.  

                    I'm answering while working, and due to that and a few other reasons already mentioned, I don't find the moment very comfortable in continuing this. There are other forums, other venues.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:11:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Still no answer (0+ / 0-)

                      Figures. Classic sophistry, make the other person disprove your non-proven assertion. I suppose that my not being able to prove that god doesn't exist proves that he exists, too?

                      Btw I'm not at all confident that working with the two-party system will work. We may well be screwed and there's nothing anyone can do now. But I'm quite confident that working in denial of it cannot. We can as much move past it as I can grow a third arm. It's here for the foreseeable future, we're stuck with it, and we can either work with it, or fail in blissful denial.

                      And, again, I don't defend it. I accept it as way too powerful for us to move past right now, like a slave on a large plantation who knows with absolute certainty that any attempt to escape will lead to instant death, instead contending themselves with making due as best they can and hoping for the plantation to self-destruct someday. Which it will. Just as the current system will self-destruct someday, perhaps helped along by some of us. But not for a long time, and not through instant action. This is a long game, and for now, the thing to do is work with the system, and perhaps nudge things along.

                      And there have definitely been advancements within this system. Most of the ones I mentioned are still with us. When they're all gone, then we'll talk.

                      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                      by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:20:23 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Nonsense... (4+ / 0-)

                        First, no solution is absolutely "provable" to solve our problems. But your solution is the one that is distinctly going in the opposite direction, that of becoming a proven failure. Just because you represent the status quo approach doesn't make your stance beyond question, as if I must prove my approach, but you are above having do the same. That argument is rooted in authoritarianism.

                        That is basically argument ad populum. You seem to think that because your status quo affirming approach is the accepted norm you are excused from justifying it.

                        But that won't work anymore. We are tumbling headlong into a crisis of staggering proportion, and you're still acting as if the New Deal just happened yesterday. And this is your answer, despite the growing evidence the system is hopelessly bought off by the immensely powerful multinational corporations. Our elected officials are largely puppets. Most elected officials are very wealthy, with net worths of many millions. They don't represent our interests.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:44:43 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Still no answer (0+ / 0-)

                          Just a lot of predictable sophistry. I.e. I suck because I suck and you don't suck because you don't suck. Most of us outgrew that in high school.

                          Until and unless you explain to me what your "solution" is, I cannot take you seriously. No one can. And no, you won't wear me down. I know that play.

                          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                          by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 02:57:42 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest, aliasalias, lotlizard

                            And you have failed to justify your own approach, which you can do without threat of banning.

                            How convenient.

                            You're complicit. You own the future. Hope your kids, if you have any, appreciate your complicity, and don't ask you if you ever considered venturing out from underneath that comfortable and known, but hopelessly flawed electoral system.

                            Even the mere threat of withholding votes, of not automatically pulling the lever for the next version of a 1% serving Presidency that comes along (likely Hillary who is worth about 30 million the last I checked) could send a real message if enough people got on board, but you will get in line, dutifully voting for whom the oligarchy proffers before you, while smugly ridiculing anyone who departs from the conformist mentality to which you fearfully and complacently cling.

                            When votes are taken for granted, which they absolutely are, nothing will change. And all those who belittle anyone who strays from this foolish adherence to the duopoly, despite the evidence the entire system has become corrupt, and will remain corrupt, are becoming complicit enablers of the wealthy interests who control our government.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:20:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, I'm the cause of all our problems (0+ / 0-)

                            Yet more lunchroom Marxism--if you don't agree with me, you're the problem.

                            Talk about projection with the authoritarianism given you're the only one being so dogmatic and passive-aggressive. LOL indeed.

                            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                            by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:35:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My last comment (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest, aliasalias

                            as well as a few others, have been substantive.

                            Care to address how votes are taken for granted, and have been for many election cycles? No? Care to address how you will ever break the pattern if you never waver from voting for the candidates the moneyed interests approve for you?

                            And Marx has nothing to do with this. I'm not a Marxist. What about you? Capitalist, I'm guessing? Your disdain for Marx tends to place you in the capitalist mindset.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:45:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  And btw, I'm not "defending" the two-party system (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive

              Just accepting it as something we cannot do anything about right now or for the foreseeable future, and have to work with, be it as allies or adversaries. Accepting it is not the same as liking or defending it. But all political plans for reform have to begin with an acceptance of political reality.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:25:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course you're defending it (5+ / 0-)

                Your acceptance of it is a defense. This is circular reasoning on your part.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:38:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Ok, you're basically being a troll (0+ / 1-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Hidden by:
                  joanneleon

                  Buh bye, and say hi to the Comintern from me.

                  "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                  by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 01:58:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My answers are trollish (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Don midwest, lotlizard

                    but yours are not? What to you base that on, other than the fact that you represent the status quo, and I do not?

                    Classic authoritarianism. You think you represent the norm, thus you call me a troll.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:00:12 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  A troll because you refuse to answer my questions (0+ / 0-)

                      instead throwing yet more questions at me. That's why you're a troll.

                      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                      by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:04:45 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You imagine yourself (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Don midwest, lotlizard, joanneleon

                        to be the grand inquisitor, whom I must obey, or I am a troll. That is why I call it authoritarian. It reflects a mentality of representing the dominant class. You don't feel obliged to explain how the failed system you defend can change its ways under growing monopolization of powerful corporate influences, but I must submit to your interrogations, or I'm a troll.

                        Not buying into your hierarchical positioning.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:23:53 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Spare me the lunchroom Marxism (0+ / 0-)

                          Someone who says they have a better way but refuses to elaborate on it is a troll. Basically, being non-responsive to questions necessitated by one's own previous remarks makes one a troll. This is clearly manipulative discourse.

                          Bye.

                          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                          by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:33:21 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Marx has nothing to do with this (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest, aliasalias, lotlizard

                            And that is just more name calling. You represent the dominant class, thus you consider yourself superior to the rubble that doesn't go along with your conformity. They must answer to YOU, but YOU will never answer to them.

                            You're complicit, until you're willing to walk away from the mess you support and at least contemplate not voting for the next multimillionaire who wants to run the country.

                            Until then, your vote is surrendered as if you're a slave to the system.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:39:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bye (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mahakali overdrive

                            I need to go buy another Learjet...

                            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                            by kovie on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:51:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Enjoy... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest, joanneleon

                            I need to apply for foodstamps and answer the lawsuit that demands I begin to pay for my student loans. Good luck with that Learjet.

                            Maybe someone else here will let you bat them around.

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:00:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Come on, kovie, let's not channel Joe McCarthy. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    joanneleon, ZhenRen
                    say hi to the Comintern from me

                    The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war.

                    by lotlizard on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 11:07:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  Classic Gore Vidal -- (3+ / 0-)

          he called it the Property Party.

          •  The American Property Party (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZhenRen

            and the American People's Property Party...

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 12:54:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm still waiting to hear from SOMEONE (0+ / 0-)

              as to how we get beyond this alleged overlord state us mostly unwitting serfs live in, so that we're reduced to merely ranting about it, or cleverly making fun of it and patting ourselves on the back for not being a sucker. Simply calling out this state's injustices and hypocrisies is not enough.

              And please don't say "I don't know, but we all need to TRY!".

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:11:19 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Why don't you share your own solutions? (0+ / 0-)

                And give us a report of how well your solutions are presently working, or how you rationalize them as preferable?

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 12:47:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  You mean there is no POLITICAL way out of (0+ / 0-)

        this outside the two party system.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 04:47:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Chris Hedges is no fool, end of discussion (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        One Pissed Off Liberal

        without the ants the rainforest dies

        by aliasalias on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 10:31:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Anyone who has given up on both parties (0+ / 0-)

          is a fool, end of discussion. A purist fool who lives in a non-existent utopia. His rant comes across as a LW version of a crazy teabagger.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:05:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Prove your thesis n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aliasalias

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 10:23:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I'd like to see some substance to your point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ZhenRen

            instead of just attacking Hedges and you can reference anything he has said that supports any conclusion that he in any way resembles the left's version of a teabagger.
            I'm not sure you know his history and if you do please enlighten me on his crazy statements because I've read his work a long time and I've missed those.

            without the ants the rainforest dies

            by aliasalias on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 12:20:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  My point that giving up on both parties (0+ / 0-)

              is idiotic and futile? Seriously? Anyone who needs this proven to them is not worth engaging, especially on this site, where such a position is bannable, for good reason. If you've completely given up on the Democratic party, you don't belong here. You may well be worth engaging in different venues, but not on this site. This is a site for people who want to work for progressive change through the Democratic party, one way or another, even if it means strenuous opposition to its current policies and practices. If Hedges has completely given up on the Democratic party even in this sense, then he's an idiot. And my reading of him upthread is that this is precisely what he's done. I have no use for morally superior people who reject the status quo but offer no better way forward beyond some vague "We need to try!" silliness.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:38:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Got it (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aliasalias

                In other words, you're hiding behind the shield of site rules to excuse yourself from having to justify your attack based on nothing more than vacuous insults.

                Well, gotta give you that privilege, I guess.

                That won't work without the shield. Don't try that anywhere else.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:07:31 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  did I say any of that? good grief chill out and (0+ / 0-)

                realize that what is important goes far beyond Team Blue vs Team Red.
                You criticize Hedges calling him an idiot in a sentence that starts with the word "if" and yes the duopoly is THE problem.
                 With the comment accusing him of feeling like he is "morally superior"and that anything he has done is NOT part of a fight for progressive change as you describe it convinces me you have either read incredibly little or none of his writings and seriously know nothing about his history.

                without the ants the rainforest dies

                by aliasalias on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 11:10:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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