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View Diary: Boehner Plan B does not include chained CPI? Take it off the table (143 comments)

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      •  Especially if it is not needed (13+ / 0-)

        to get Rs to vote for a tax increase.  Over teh cliff means the vote will only be for cuts.

        I am convinced that chained cpi is symbolic as much as anything.  Tax raises are anethema to Rs and social security cuts to Dems.  So the price for a tax rasie vote is a cut to social security or medicare (the ager increase).

        But if there is going to be a deal (and that seeems likelyeven next year), and if it is "big" and that seeems likely even next year, Rs will demand pain.

        We could execute 100 old people, but they likely will want more.  (snark)    

        Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

        by TomP on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 12:11:52 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The pain I'd like to see is purely on Republican (11+ / 0-)

          sacred cows.  Defense, gun "rights", taxes, corporate oversight, environmental protection, banking and finance reform, etc, etc.

          We've spent the last sixty years defending the New Deal.  It's time to have the Republicans defend the measures that drove our whole country into the ditch.

          •  "Negotiations" w/ Boehner are waste of time b/c he (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            J M F, RubDMC, ColoTim, Calamity Jean

            clearly doesn't control his caucus.  Only reason to have 1 on 1 negotiations is if it's understood that Obama can get Senate Dem approval of any deal and Boehner can get GOP House approval of it.  Otherwise, what's the point of negotiating in that fashion?

            Boehner is like the guy who goes into an expensive restaurant and orders a meal w/ appetizers and drinks but doesn't have the ability to pay the tab.  He can't muster 218 votes for a clean "Plan B."  How the hell is he going to get 218 votes for a "Grand Bargain?"

            Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

            by RFK Lives on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:40:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  great comment, ColoTim (4+ / 0-)
            We've spent the last sixty years defending the New Deal.  It's time to have the Republicans defend the measures that drove our whole country into the ditch.

            "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

            by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:20:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  agree. top comment. /nt (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              allenjo, ColoTim

              "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

              by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:27:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  your signature - reminds me ......... (0+ / 0-)
                Oh what a tangled web we weave,
                When first we practice to deceive
                We have some major deception going on right in DC and  even more right here on the dkos.

                "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:54:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  what's going on (0+ / 0-)

                  here on dKos?   i'm barely catching the front page this week.

                  "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                  by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:56:18 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  all the posts over the past few days (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kj in missouri

                    Read the diaries on the Chained CPI and you will find the true believers comments - and it will catch you up, kj

                    Obama didn't do that, a cut is a cut, Obama never said that, etc. etc. etc.

                    "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                    by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:01:40 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i'm sure many here, (0+ / 0-)

                      if they think of me at all, would put me into the true believer camp.

                      i've always considered myself quite pragmatic about my idealism.   :-)

                      PBO has a 2nd term, thanks to millions of voters, and i want him to act like it.  

                      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                      by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:40:50 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Are you applauding every action, every deed (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kj in missouri

                        that had Bush done it you would have been enraged?

                        Do you get angry when people do not agree with you on the true brilliance of his each and every action?

                        Do you believe that everything he does must be the "right thing" just because he did it?

                        Or can you accept reality even behind rose colored glasses?

                        I wish I still had the hope, but for me, it is gone, and I don't think it is coming back.

                        So keep the faith, and hopefully you will be rewarded for what is important to you in this nation.

                        "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                        by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:01:17 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  no. :-) (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          allenjo

                          there are no sacred cows in my world-view.

                          and yes, i'd rather give someone the benefit of the doubt and be proven wrong than not give it to begin with.  (i'm proved wrong all the time!)

                          when it comes to PBO i've had one goal, get him a second term.   well, he's got it and i'll be quick to hold his feet to the fire for the next four years.

                          i gave up on romance with pols a long time ago.   if i'm in the game of politics-- i'm as pragmatic as they come.  my ideals however are right there with Bernie and Dennis Kuchinich.

                          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                          by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 05:22:11 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

          •  environmental protection is a R sacred cow? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ColoTim, Calamity Jean

            you mixed your bag o' tricks, there.

            "A dollah makes me hollah"-- Stephen Colbert, pretending to be S. Palin

            by stagemom on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:50:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  It was never on the table (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bluesee

        I don't know how many times that can be said......which is why its not in plan B.  Plus it never mattered anyway considering they never agree to any of Obama's plans.

        •  It was in Obama's offer (19+ / 0-)

          I don't understand why, like Nancy Pelosi, some folks keep denying what the WH acknowledged.  

          •  The White House Spokesperson on CPI, from the (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pistolSO, La Gitane

            White House Press briefing on Dec. 18, 2012.

            MR. CARNEY:  Well, let’s be clear about one thing:  The President didn’t put it on the table.  This is something that Republicans want.  And it is --

            Q    But the Republicans --

            MR. CARNEY:  -- part of his -- if I could please answer Sam’s question, I’d appreciate it.  And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process.  I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations.  And so it’s not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI.  

            There are also -- as part of the President’s proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

            http://www.whitehouse.gov/...

            Bold highlights by commentor.

            This CPI issue was a Republican request.

            The Republicans are now against it because, I believe, they find it unatttractive that the changed CPI could boost taxes..... They are after all anti tax increase. And with some of Boehner's rabid tea party members, this is a no go....

            Perhaps this is the reason the President offered this as a counter measure....he knew they would reject it.... This to some Republicans is a poision pill..... And the President has just shoved it at Republicans, while appearing to offer concessions..... I think it's brilliant.....

            •  Let me see if I have the dimensions straight: (18+ / 0-)

              1. GOP demands chained CPI from White House according to White House.

              2. White House accepts demand.

              3. White House offers chained CPI to GOP knowing GOP would decline to accept what they just demanded.

              4. Brilliant!

              Do I have this correct?

              •  A poison pill...for something that you just told (5+ / 0-)

                us the other side wanted?

                So the WH house inserted something to kill a bill that they explicitly said the other side demanded...

                yup...sounds about right for this negotiation team...and the people that try to spin their ineptitude...

                "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

                by justmy2 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:41:43 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  He poisoned the bill by including something you (3+ / 0-)

                claim the Republicans were demanding?

                "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                by JesseCW on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:15:32 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  You're confused. Think about it. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Matt Z
              •  IF your premise that the GOP didn't (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kj in missouri, allenjo

                really want the chained CPI provision on Social Security (and that's a big if), then Boehner has successfully embarrassed the President by convincing him to go out on that limb.

                The beauty of the secret squirrel, behind-closed-doors meetings for the Republicans is that they can privately make demands and then deny that they did so - which is why many people watching - well, some smart people watching - thought that it wasn't a very good idea for the President to agree to those meetings.

                Anyway, aside from being more than extremely annoyed and disappointed with the President for ever including the chained CPI offer in any deal, now you are telling me that I should consider the possibility that he is in effect also a sucker, on top of it all.

                Not sure you're doing the President or the White House any good with your argument.  You're not helping, as they say...

                Just sayin'

              •  POTUS took "chained CPI for SS" & made it omnibus (0+ / 0-)

                I think Ned is accurately understanding what the Whitehouse was saying.  Reading the transcript it looks like the POTUS said "OK, you want Chained CPI for SS? I will do it but only in the form of I give you Chained CPI for EVERYTHING."  Hence the poison pill.  It is kind of a subtle F*ck You.  One of those wonky positions that is hard to explain to the general public in a sound bite but has big implications.  Was playing with fire though since the soundbite is what the public took from it, e.g., it is just about Chained CPI for SS.  The risk was that the repubes could have passed a clean bill and asked why the POTUS was lying.  Didn't happen though.  Was just to damn muddy.  Media isn't sophisticated enough to explain it.  Even we are fighting w/ one another trying to decipher it.  If no one here but Ned was able to even identify WTF the Whitehouse was TRYING to say, lord help us all if that was actually supposed to be a political winner from BHO.

                Mmmmm. Sprinkles. - H.J. Simpson.

                by ten canvassers on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 04:51:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  First of all...not in the president's offere (8+ / 0-)

              and the republicans asked for it are not the same.

              2.   The President had this in his offer last summer, so Carney is being misleading at best.

              3.  Who care who put it on the table first?  What is this?  Kindergarten?

              "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

              by justmy2 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:40:11 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course, you don't care. You are contented to (0+ / 0-)

                suggest that the President somehow pulled this offer out just because we know Obama is so dastardly.... This whole diary is about the President making the offer. What are you talking about with "Who cares"?

                What we have here is a series of negotiations within a dynamic. The full scope of which none of us here and certainly none of the eternal anti-Obama critics have any knowledge of..... So, by all means, let's accuse Carney of lying. It is much more conducive to the anti-White House rhetoric.

                •  i'm not an eternal anti-Obama critic (6+ / 0-)

                  by the slightest measure, and i don't think it matters one whit who put cuts to SS on the table.  a ten cent SS cut shouldn't be on anyone's table.   i suggest a dynamically robust negotiation without social security mentioned even in passing.

                  i quoted st ronnie above, now i'll quote idiot mitt:  it's the principle here.  democrats don't touch the third rail.

                  "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                  by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:56:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  democrats don't touch the third rail. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kj in missouri, quill

                    There is little to be left of the democratic party once they start dismantling the programs they built and defended over the past decades.

                    "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                    by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:35:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  But, but, but... (0+ / 0-)

                He made me do it!!!

            •  speaking only for myself, (11+ / 0-)

              it doesn't matter who put it on the table.  the idea that PBO would either put it or let it stay on the table enough to get my irish up, to quote St. Ronnie.

              "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

              by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:40:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Can you link the Republican public proposal (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              thegood thebad thedumb, allenjo

              pushed by the orange one which called for chained CPI?

              "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

              by JesseCW on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:13:27 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Poor Mr. Carney, he just doesn't know what is (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kj in missouri

              going on, and they send him out, he jumbles up a bunch of words that make little and sometimes no sense,  and they call it a presser.

              MR. CARNEY:  -- part of his -- if I could please answer Sam’s question, I’d appreciate it.  And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process.  

              I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations.  

              And so it’s not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI.  

              There are also -- as part of the President’s proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

              And for exempting the most vulnerable that would have to require means testing..........

              "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

              by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:26:58 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Social security has always been means tested. (0+ / 0-)
                •  You are going to have to tell me how??????? (0+ / 0-)

                  "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                  by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:56:07 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Basically, SS benefit is 90% of average salary (0+ / 0-)

                    up to certain cutoff then 32% of salary between first and second cutoffs and 15% of salary after the second cutoff. So if your average salary was low enough, you'll get 90% of it as a SS benefit. If it was higher, you will get much less. And the SS tax you pay is fixed as a % of income so people with lower income get a lot more in benefits than they paid in taxes. That's means testing. I don't have a problem with it but we shouldn't pretend that it doesn't exist.

                    •  I have very wealthy friends that get very high (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      FG

                      social security payments. They did not have to qualify for that amount, they received what is calculated as to what they paid in over the years.

                      I also have some other friends very well off that collect ss disability payments, so I doubt there is any means testing there as they would never qualify.

                      I am aware that for welfare, food stamps and programs like that you do have to pass a means tests to qualify. I have a neighbor on gets food stamps and Medicaid help and she had to qualify by income, bank statements, her expenses, etc. just like qualifying for a loan to show her need.

                      Perhaps we are looking at it from different sides, mine being that what you collect (the amount) does not require you to prove you need, nor is it reduced for other income that you have.

                      As Pelosi was saying - protecting the poor/needy from cuts in using a chained cpi, the only way that could be done would be a means test, that they would qualify for that protection from cuts that others collecting SS would not.

                      Are we on the same page here?

                      "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

                      by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 06:52:54 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You mean that people don't qualify for certain (0+ / 0-)

                        benefits if their income exceeds certain threshold. That's true for many programs although not for social security as you're saying.

                        But it is not necessary to change SS in such a way to protect low income seniors. Since the formula for calculation of SS benefits is already quite complex, there are plenty of ways it can be modified to preserve the income of lower income recipients.

          •  it was not a wish list, it included what the GOP (0+ / 0-)

            GOP wanted, the chained social security, and what the Dems wanted, a tax cut for the middle class

            Brand new favorite RSS feed of Daily Kos Radio Podcasts http://kagrox.libsyn.com/rss
            Jobs, Jobs, Jobs

            by We Won on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:47:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The middle class doesn't need tax cuts. They're (3+ / 0-)

              massively undertaxed compared to just about every developed nation on Earth.

              The Middle Class needs services.  The Middle Class need to get something in return for their taxes.

              "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

              by JesseCW on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:17:15 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  some countries provide more benefits with less (0+ / 0-)

                money

                Brand new favorite RSS feed of Daily Kos Radio Podcasts http://kagrox.libsyn.com/rss
                Jobs, Jobs, Jobs

                by We Won on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:39:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  We pay staggeringly low taxes. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  quill

                  While I have many issues with Clinton, his tax policies were in fact superior to George Bush's.

                  We don't need Bush rates with minor tweaks.

                  You don't jump start a stalled economy (and the real economy has been stalled for 5 years) with tax breaks.

                  You do it with spending.

                  "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                  by JesseCW on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 02:52:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  To the equivalent of five people... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kj in missouri

                  Some countries also don't provide much benefit at all for their citizens because they have not invested in resources and infrastructure to serve their people.

                  Anyway, whatever.

                  If you are talking about Social Security that is an earned benefit that the government really has no logical or legal reason to downgrade because of deficit issues.  It is a completely separate fund.

                  It would be like the US Federal Government deciding that they are going to reduce LLoyds of London's payouts for legitimate claims made by their insured customers in order to balance the US government's budget.

                  It would be like me deciding that you - who I do not know from Adam - must take a pay cut so that I can buy a bigger car - even though the savings yielded on your pay cut won't actually pay for my bigger car.

        •  Srsly? (17+ / 0-)

          The President's own spokesman said bluntly in public that he included it in his latest offer by Republican request.

        •  I assume you will won't respond again (7+ / 0-)

          after being informed of the fact that you are 100% wrong.

          right, because you are a mind-reader (0+ / 0-)

          Like the rest of these people giving the president grief over something that HASN'T happened, and wasn't announced.  Have you heard it from the presiden't mouth?  because I guess I missed that one....

          by cpetty08 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:11:22 PM EST

          [ Parent | Reply to This ]

               Yes...did you not watch the Press Conference? (2+ / 0-)

              Did you not watch yesterday's press briefing by the WH spokesman?

              You did miss it....too bad for you...but now that you know, let me guess...you have a new excuse?

               

           MR. CARNEY:  -- part of his -- if I could please answer Sam’s question, I’d appreciate it.  And the President did include it in his counterproposal, his counteroffer, as part of this process, as part of the negotiation process. I would note that this is a technical change -- would be if instated -- to the way that economists calculate inflation, and it would affect every program that has -- that uses the CPI in its calculations.  And so it’s not directed at one particular program; it would affect every program that uses CPI.  There are also -- as part of the President’s proposals, he would make sure that the most vulnerable were exempted out from this change.

                  But let’s be clear, this is something that the Republicans have asked for, and as part of an effort to find common ground with the Republicans, the President has agreed to put this in his proposal -- agreed to have this as part of a broad deficit reduction package that includes asking the wealthiest to pay more so that we can achieve the kind of revenue targets that are necessary for a balanced approach to deficit reduction.

                  Q    Right, but there’s a lot -- again, my question was there’s a lot of people who voted for these lawmakers on a promise that --

                       MR. CARNEY:  You heard the President say every time he talked about this --

                       Q    Can I finish my question?

                       MR. CARNEY:  Sure, yes.

                       Q    A lot of people -- I’ll let you answer -- a lot of people voted for these lawmakers for reelection not too long ago on a promise that Social Security wouldn’t be touched, and if it was touched, it would be done separately from these fiscal cliff negotiations.  What do those people -- what are these people now supposed to believe about the promises that their lawmakers made, including the President?

                       MR. CARNEY:  Let me again make clear two things.  One, the President has always said as part of this process when we’re talking about the spending cuts side of this that it would require tough choices by both sides.  And that is certainly the case if you want to reach an agreement.

                  Secondly, this is a technical adjustment that supporters of it and economists -- outside economists say is meant to make the government’s estimates of inflation more accurate.  Thirdly, as part of the President’s proposal, there is a clause that would protect vulnerable communities including the very elderly when it comes to Social Security recipients.

                       So there’s no question that it represents an effort to compromise, but it is also not -- this is a technical adjustment that economists believe is about getting the proper measure of inflation, and it is one sought by Republicans.

                  So, again, we’re not going to get everything we want.  We knew that the President’s proposal that he put forward to the super committee that we put forward in the beginning of these negotiations would not pass unchanged.  But I think your question demonstrates the absolute fact that the President has shown enormous good faith in trying to reach a compromise here.  And it would be shocking if Republicans passed up this opportunity for what they say they seek, which is significant deficit reduction, significant spending cuts, simply to protect those just shy of being millionaires from having to pay a dime extra in income taxes.

             time for new talking points...whereever you are getting them from...tell them the are old, stale, and making you look foolish

              "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

              by justmy2 on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 03:38:56 PM EST

              [ Parent | Reply to This ]
                   Heh (0+ / 0-)

                  notice the criquets in response to this comment?

                  by kos on Wed Dec 19, 2012 at 06:15:09 PM EST

                  [ Parent | Reply to This | Recommend Hide ]

          "Small Businesses Don't Build Levees" - Melissa Harris Perry

          by justmy2 on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:21:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  that is so funny, the master of the saying a lot (0+ / 0-)

            of words, and in the end, you don't know what the heck he meant.

            Kinda Sara Palinish in a way, but maybe more confusing.

            "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

            by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:41:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  it is a horrible, terrible, boneheaded, callus (3+ / 0-)

          idea to offer, float or in any way consider.
          this coming from a previously staunch supporter of PBO's decisions (even if not 100% in agreement with them).

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 01:27:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  where do you read the news? (0+ / 0-)

          I am really curious to know.

          "Who are these men who really run this land? And why do they run it with such a thoughtless hand?" David Crosby

          by allenjo on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 03:22:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I don't see any way (6+ / 0-)

        for anything to pass the House, other than a total extension of the Bush tax cuts. Is this likely to change with the new Congress?

        I don't see where this can possibly go.

        Democrats should be wary of cutting Social Security if the GOP won't include it in their own self-serving bill. Because that opens the way for 2014 campaign, much like the anti-Medicare cuts that fueled Tea Party election of 2010.

        I really don't get Obama's thinking here. The chained-CPI and the floating of the 2 year age increase for Medicare eligibility are political poison. I don't get why he offered them up at all.

        He should have left anything like that up to the GOP to suggest and demand, even if he decided he might eventually capitulate.

        Skepticism of all the elite institutions, not trust, is what required for successful leadership in this era. Digby

        by coral on Thu Dec 20, 2012 at 12:47:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Except "some" are paying attention. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kj in missouri, allenjo, quill

        "Walk it back," of course, great idea, but don't forget.

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