Skip to main content

View Diary: PA Shoooting Spree at the Same time as NRA Presser (4 Dead) (277 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  now imagine if nancy's son got mental illness help (15+ / 0-)

    I would push for the solution where no attacks happen no matter what weapon the person would pick.

    •  As much as I am in favor of having a gun reform (13+ / 0-)

      conversation, I appreciate your comment because I don't want to lose sight of the issue of needed mental health reforms either.

      The President has said something similar, and I agree with him on this: we must stop violence through a multi-pronged approach, and to not do that is really just negligent.

      No salient aspect of this conversation should go undiscussed after Sandy Hook.

      Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

      by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:31:04 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  it is frustrating to see it get lip service though (5+ / 0-)

        there are no mental illness services bills that were immediately introduced, and just a passing sentence in obama's speeches.  There has been no action.

      •  Are we talking policy, or are we talking cultural? (6+ / 0-)
        needed mental health reforms
        In terms of our policy, I'd say we're currently stuck in the 1950's.

        In terms of how our culture views mental health and illness, we're trapped in the dark ages.

        If we can make the cultural sea change, policy will catch up. Best policy in the world isn't going to help if we don't lose the stigma.

        This past week has me deeply discouraged.

        •  Because the conversation gets pushed back (4+ / 0-)

          from the Left as "pro-NRA" it has been hard to discuss. It's not Pro-NRA, however. It's smart. And it needs discussing. I like the distinctions you raise a lot here about cultural reforms and stigma vs. education combined with actual policy reforms. This is vital to clarify and both parts need addressing.

          Thanks for this bit of distinction. I will remember it.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:45:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'd rather have the policy first and then work (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dan667, CA wildwoman

          on the stigma.

          **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

          by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:54:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Amen !! n/t (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            glorificus

            Best way to change stigma is to make effective mental health treatment more available, so people can see that biblical demons are not a cause & illness is not 'a character flaw' in most cases.

            Something that doesn't make good sense, makes bad sense. That means someone is being deliberately hurtful & selfish. Look for motives behind actions & words.

            by CA wildwoman on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 09:50:18 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  It is all too easy (7+ / 0-)

        to dismiss mental health reforms when it's seen as derailing or deflecting needed gun control legislation.  Both are needed.  Addressing one does not and should not mean abandoning the other.

        Things work out best for those who make the best of the way things work out.

        by winsock on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:50:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  mahakali, in truth, I have no clue what drives the (0+ / 0-)

        sane, or insane to violence upon innocent children, themselves, or others.  

        •  The drive is a mystery, the vehicle is quite clear (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          foucaultspendulum, CA wildwoman

          Guns and Ammo.  

          Attention clinging warm gun fetishists.  Trade in your gun for Viagra.

          Anthrax, atom bombs, and personal drones.  

          Even free speech and religon have reasonable limits.    

          These irresponsible people have to face the death and destruction they cause others.  

          Barack Hussein Obama- Don't Mock the Constitution.

          by odenthal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:42:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Disordered thinking and unreasonable (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          foucaultspendulum, CA wildwoman

          emotional responses or disinhibition to their thoughts. I don't think the sane (I dislike that term -- I mean here the non-psychotic, roughly) commit acts of gun violence toward children unless there is some other social force at play that creates organized violence en masse, such as we see with the military at times, with militias, with genocides, and sometimes with gang violence. Non-socially-sanctified violence committed by an individual is due to problems thinking, reasoning, and feeling clearly and appropriately in response to a given situation. This can occasionally be due to organic issues that are not mental illness but are brain tumor, injury, endocrine problems when extreme, toxicity, etc. but in the absence of these, the usual cause is a small group of known psychiatric disorders that almost every mass murderer has been afflicted by.

          If you've ever known someone who was suffering from psychosis, paranoia, delusional thinking, or hallucinations, it's easy to see what causes these sorts of people to commit acts of violence that are senseless. There isn't much mystery to this other than what causes some to suffer certain thought disorders and others not to, certain types of delusions and others not to.

          I would caution people against using the broad term "mental illness," which includes almost every one in it to some degree other other. I think the issue is, of course, dangerous and disordered thoughts which arise from usually schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorders, and sometimes extreme mania, all of which are fairly treatable.

          I don't know what Adam Lanza suffered from. We will probably find out in time. He had medical records, obviously. He had known problems. He may not have been diagnosed, of course, because these problems can arise in young men of his age. If he had other issues such as Aspergers, that could have masked their diagnosis since he wasn't very communicative with many people.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:01:53 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  mahakali, I agree with your caution against labels (0+ / 0-)

            May I include any bias towards those with Aspergers'?

            I'll refrain from a full force frontal attack on the stupidity of your learned opinion.  "If he had other issues such as Aspergers, that could have masked their diagnosis since he wasn't very communicative with many people."

            It's my hope you are not representing Ms. Oliver.

            •  I'm not following your comment (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CA wildwoman

              Who is Ms. Oliver?

              I hold very strong support for those with Asperger's and feel that they've been oddly included in this all. It's as irrelevent that Adam Lanza had something like Asperger's as it is that he had brown hair. The only possible relevance is if, because of his Asperger's, no one paid attention to his other, non-Asperger's problems (if he displayed these; we don't know). Or, he could have been misdiagnosed.

              This is why I say we ought to really wait for medical records information.

              But setting Lanza aside for a moment, having followed mass murders for years, the issue of disordered thinking/psychosis has been distinct in almost all of these cases. We can walk historically down the line and see this.

              It's of interest to me for the reason which I've noted before: my uncle was an untreated schizophrenic who was violent and harmed others and then killed himself. His father was a treated schizophrenic was was violent but then received care and did not kill himself.

              I hold no stigma toward anyone with mental illness. I am angry with the United States for its failure to adequately protect people with certain serious psychiatric problems, to fail to help these folks, and to let them wind up victimizing others as well because of this failure. I've written about this extensively over the past week or so.

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:47:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Mental illness help (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      James Kresnik

      will not be a solution where no attacks happen .
      Ill people under care still do "things" .

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:44:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would rather have someone come at me with (5+ / 0-)

        a knife or chair than a gun, if I'm attacked at all.

        **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

        by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:57:20 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If Lanza only had a knife, he may still have (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sethtriggs, 417els, gramofsam1

          killed his mom, but odds are that 26 others would probably be still alive.

        •  And why are you saying that to me ? (0+ / 0-)

          "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

          by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:19:41 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Because you said, "Ill people under care (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            RockyMtnLib

            still do "things" .

            I'm not arguing ALL attacks will stop, but getting rid of guns can make them less lethal.

            I know RKBA does not agree with that, but the numbers are clear. The ATF has the numbers but the Tiarht (sp?) Amendment is the NRA-paid way to silence them.

            **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

            by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:28:46 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Are you thinking that I might be (0+ / 0-)

              part of the rkba ?

              "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

              by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:32:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The excuse sounds like one they would make. (0+ / 0-)

                **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

                by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:11:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  What "excuse" ? (0+ / 0-)

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:23:12 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  ... (0+ / 0-)
                   now imagine if nancy's son got mental illness help
                  I would push for the solution where no attacks happen no matter what weapon the person would pick.

                  by dan667 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:21:02 AM PST

                  Mental illness help

                  will not be a solution where no attacks happen .
                  Ill people under care still do "things" .

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:44:01 AM PST

                   I would rather have someone come at me with

                  a knife or chair than a gun, if I'm attacked at all.

                  by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:57:20 AM PST

                  And why are you saying that to me ?

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:19:41 AM PST

                   Because you said, "Ill people under care still do "things" .

                  I'm not arguing ALL attacks will stop, but getting rid of guns can make them less lethal.

                  I know RKBA does not agree with that, but the numbers are clear. The ATF has the numbers but the Tiarht (sp?) Amendment is the NRA-paid way to silence them.

                  by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:28:46 AM PST

                  Are you thinking that I might be
                  part of the rkba ?

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:32:48 AM PST

                  The excuse sounds like one they would make.

                  by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 05:11:06 PM PST

                  What "excuse" ?

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:23:12 PM PST

                  "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                  by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:40:57 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This "excuse": (0+ / 0-)
                    Mental illness help
                    will not be a solution where no attacks happen .
                    Ill people under care still do "things" .
                    You are saying that controlling the number of guns will not completely eliminate attacks, so therefore gun control should not be considered at all.

                    This is a common RKBA argument. However, I've noticed certain very verbose RKBAers have shut up for the past 2 days, which makes me happy.

                    My point is more people die when guns are involved.

                    **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

                    by glorificus on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:22:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Eh ? (0+ / 0-)
                      You are saying that controlling the number of guns will not completely eliminate attacks, so therefore gun control should not be considered at all.
                      I said nothing of the sort . That's a misunderstanding on your part . If it was intentional or not , you could not be more wrong as to lumping me in with the rkba . I think you need to think about what you are doing .

                      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                      by indycam on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:47:34 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Here is a hint for you . (0+ / 0-)
                      There is one best way , imho . (11+ / 0-)

                      And its the very extreme opposite of what the nra thinks .

                      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                      by indycam on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:47:02 AM PST

                      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

                      by indycam on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 07:52:53 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

        •  If wishes were horses, (0+ / 0-)

          everyone would ride.

          Columbine was an apt demonstration that a gun free zone plus slow response from officers more concerned for their own safety than the safety of people under attack. Remember, they are not obligated to protect your life or the life of your little ones.

          Dozens of school knife sprees across China have resulted in many dead. The children in the last knife attack incident were only fortunate for the fact they didn't die like the others.

          Meanwhile we have to protect life and deal with violent criminals, armed with whatever they bring to violate life. But whatever. To prohibitionists, facts are only a means to a self-dealing end.

          Prohibition is always about feeling morally superior about something they fear because of ignorance, while smugly living in complete blindness to the real problems real life presents for everyone outside of their social bubble.

          The whole decade needs an asterisk.

          by James Kresnik on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:42:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Show verification of 'dozens' and 'many dead'. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miggles, glorificus
            Dozens of school knife sprees across China have resulted in many dead. The children in the last knife attack incident were only fortunate for the fact they didn't die like the others.
            While I've read there have been other knife attacks, I think your statement is greatly exaggerated.

            "Evil is a lack of empathy, a total incapacity to feel with their fellow man." - Capt. Gilbert,Psychiatrist, at the end of Nuremberg trials.

            by 417els on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 03:26:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  "Dozens of knifing sprees" (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Miggles, glorificus

            Dozens? Prove it.

            liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

            by RockyMtnLib on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:16:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  ALL sides of the equation, in my opinion, (8+ / 0-)

      need to be addressed, including mental health services, anti-poverty activities, social change, and yes, intelligent and reasonable gun control.

                          Just my two cents,
                                Heather

      Torture is ALWAYS wrong, no matter who is inflicting it on whom.

      by Chacounne on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 10:49:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  There Are Far More People Who Are Mentally Ill (4+ / 0-)

      the there are mentally ill people who go on a murderous rampage.

      Imagine if Larza had attack Sandy Hollow with a Bowie knife instead of an AR-15 and multiple 30 round clips. I'm sure that right now there would be some 26 people who would be glad that he had used a different weapon.

      Because the weapon does matter!

      But hey, you're free to push NRA memes - blame anything but the actual weapon - if that floats your boat

      I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican Party.

      by OnlyWords on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:05:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  the man in china slashed 22 kids (0+ / 0-)

        and he has stated he was not trying to kill.

        •  How Many Of Them Died? (5+ / 0-)

          Oh, that's right - NONE OF THEM!

          Maybe you would rather be shot dead than slashed, but I would much rather take on a berserker with a knife than an AR-15...

          The weapon does matter!

          I am not now, nor have I ever been, a member of the Republican Party.

          by OnlyWords on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:19:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  and you find 22 knife slashed kids acceptable? (0+ / 0-)

            this argument really rubs me the wrong way.  It is not acceptable and resources should be focused on mental health resources that are going to prevent all kinds of attacks.

            •  We can multi-task - deal w/guns AND mental health. (3+ / 0-)

              Choke off the supply of military weapons.

              Medical treatment for mentally ill people.

              Why, it's like we can shore up our offense AND plot a defense at the same time.

              And if you're foaming at the mouth with fear that the Moozlim in the White House will take away yer guuuuuuns, there's the proof that you qualify for mental health care.

            •  Natural born killers (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CA wildwoman

              People kill.  Always have, always will.  

              Till we get everyone's human nature purged, we need to protect ourselves.

              Reasonable limits: Anthrax, C4, drones, anti-aircraft missiles, and atom bombs on the no-buy list.  

              N-shot clips, armor-peircing cop-killer rounds,  need to be added to that list.

              No right is absolute.  Even religon and free speech have limits.

              Barack Hussein Obama- Don't Mock the Constitution.

              by odenthal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:57:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  There's no effort to improve mental health service (0+ / 0-)

                show me where that is happening.

                •  You're falling for the NRA distraction. (0+ / 0-)

                  Bait n switch.

                  We will never fix the people.  As if the root problem is a few bad people.  Anyone can snap.  You, your family, can suddenly "not like mondays".

                  Given human fragile mental health; it is prudent to limit access to lethal force.

                  You have a constitutonal right to easily kill 6 people; but not 30.

                  Have you noticed how NRA refer to non-members as sheeple.  As if tthey are lone wolves looking afer the rest of us.   The gunz make them fully human.

                  Notice too how there is always an implied threat - they will go postal if pushed too far.  Ha Ha.

                  Barack Hussein Obama- Don't Mock the Constitution.

                  by odenthal on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 01:37:48 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Nice strawman that I hear a lot. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CA wildwoman

              That violent crime not involving guns doesn't bother us at all. This year a transsexual person was beaten nearly to death by hate criminals and a lesbian was beaten brutally by her SO's brother on Thanksgiving. You better believe that bothered the shit out of me.

              But there is absolutely nothing wrong with being bothered more by violent crime involving guns than other violent crime. That's because unlike with guns, with other types of violent crime you actually have a more than small chance of surviving it. Not so much when bullets blow through your body.

              Someone in a FB group I debate said "You only care about violence with guns because you have an agenda".

              You're damn right I have an agenda. That agenda is fewer deaths from violent crime.

              Yes we can address the propensity towards violence - all kinds of violence. That can include improving our mental health system, also include trying to reduce inequality, better education, etc.

              But first and foremost I want fewer people to die from gun violence. Australia figured it out. Japan figured it out. Just about all of the rest of the free world figured it out. What's our excuse?

              liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

              by RockyMtnLib on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 06:27:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  What if Lanza made a bomb? (0+ / 0-)

        My thought is that if we don't work out the risks of mental health issues and just take away their guns, people like Lanza will resort to making bombs, which are easy to make and impossible to regulate.  We need comprehensive violence reform if anything.

        •  Because civilian-made bombs are notoriously (8+ / 0-)

          unreliable and seldom lethal. Oklahoma City was an outlier-most home-made bombs never even detonate and when they do, they usually maim rather than kill. See for example-the Unabomber. He sent out 26 bombs, and only 3 of them resulted in deaths. Not even on the radar compared to the body counts we see in our now almost daily shooting rampages.

          Similarly, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold made a ton of pipe bombs-enough to level the entire school, but only a couple of them went off and nobody was hurt by them.

          Mass murderers enjoy watching their victims die. That is their primary motive in most cases-and why guns are their weapon of choice.

          You must work-we must all work-to make a world that is worthy of its children -Pablo Casals Please support TREE Climbers for victims of child sexual abuse and exploitation.

          by SwedishJewfish on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:45:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Plus the ingredients are controlled and tracked. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SwedishJewfish

            From what I understand, buying large enough quantities of certain fertilizers or other "dual use" bomb-making chemicals will set off alarm bells at DHS.  In other words, even the stuff you use to grow your tomatoes appears to be more carefully regulated than buying a few hundred rounds of .223.

          •  I'm thinking of Iraq more than Oklahoma (0+ / 0-)

            It doesn't seem that difficult for bad guys to find instructions to make IEDs online somewhere.  I'm not saying that we shouldn't work to keep guns out of the hans of bad guys.  However, we really need to address mental health issues just as much if we want to stop the violence.  It seems to me that there's a reason that school shootings are primarily carried out by middle class white males with mental health issues, and if all we do is take away their weapons they will find other methods.

        •  Not only that, but a violent mentally ill person (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          odenthal, RockyMtnLib, CA wildwoman

          may well follow the path of least resistance to commit the deed, but may well not have the patience or indeed the anger to learn how to build a bomb, go out and acquire the parts, assemble and deliver it. Or it may take so long to do so that that particular idea loses its urgency, momentum, ...

          Not all mentally ill people are mentally ill all the time. For many, the illness is triggered situationally, or comes and goes for some other reason. That's what "I'm having a good day" means.

          No. If you want to prevent more attrocities commited for high body counts with maximum fire power, the surest way is to remove the firepower.
          A) it's one of the only common elements to all such events and
          B) It's the simplest solution. Much easier than trying to figure out who is or will be capable and likely to do such things at any given moment.

          Which is more important: safe citizens, or people having their guns?
          That's what it comes down to.

          Mass shootings are still rare enough that most of us will never see one in person.
          The means to commit them are not so rare. Remove the means, decrease the shootings.

          And it may just be me, but my mind equates the dogged stubborness of our nation to allow such easy access and the reluctance of citizens to consider strict gun control with stubborn children stamping their feet when they aren't allowed to have a toy. They need to grow up and do what's best for the country.
          The NRA wouldn't like it, but f*ck the NRA.

          I believe in democracy, civil liberties, and the rule of law. That makes me a liberal, and I’m proud of it. - Paul Krugman

          by Gentle Giant on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 12:03:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The NRA is out of the debate, IMO (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            CA wildwoman

            However, if you want to pass meaningful gun control regulations, you're going to have to get a lot of people on board that simply don't trust the Democrats.  Banning guns is not politically feasible, so we have to look at what can be most effective.

            We need to focus on the "well regulated" part of the second amendment.  We need our leaders to pass laws that will keep guns out of the hands of the wrong people but be careful not to infringe on what a significant portion of the country believes is a human right whether we all agree or not or else any legislation proposed is a non-starter.  I'd like to see some progress made even if it makes the purity extremists on both sides upset.

    •  Try convincing the wingnuts of that (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gramofsam1, CA wildwoman

      A sad reality is some of the mental health clues that point toward possible violence: paranoia, distrust of authority, grandiose fantasizing and the need for an arsenal as seen as admirable traits by the very people who want guns everywhere.

      The man in the suit has just bought a new car with the profit he made from your dreams... (-7.00, -5.64)

      by markc9503 on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 11:37:54 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Don't convince them. Out vote them. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RockyMtnLib

        Barack Hussein Obama- Don't Mock the Constitution.

        by odenthal on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 01:59:53 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Your larger point I agree with, including (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CA wildwoman

        the part about distrust of authority, although that is a common trait of a lot of progressives. The trick is to make distrust of authority grounded in reality and based on sound morality. Not just some version of opposotional defiance disorder.

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 07:22:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site