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View Diary: On the issue of arming people in schools (103 comments)

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  •  even if you buy much of lapierre's bullshit (30+ / 0-)

    how does an armed guard stop a maniac who has semi-automatics and large clips? most schools have multiple entrances, and if someone breaks in firing- unless by pure luck the guard is right there by that entrance- there will be plenty of dead before the guard even has time to arrive. that people as insane as lapierre own guns is as good an argument as any for gun control.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Fri Dec 21, 2012 at 04:30:17 PM PST

    •  In an ideal world there might be deterrent effect (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wasatch, kurt

      But suicidal people are hard to deter.

    •  Because it works. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      Rampage shooters are counting on zero resistance. Hence they pick soft targets like gun free zones. As soon as the rampage shooter faces armed resistance their Armageddon fantasy is over.

      Police now employ an active shooter protocol where the first armed officers immediately engage the rampage shooter. This usually drives the shooter into a defensive posture. Having the shooter in a defensive posture is a good thing because they stop killing people. Giving time for SWAT to show up and take over.

      Back in the day (pre-Colombine) cops would wait for backup and SWAT before confronting rampage shooters. Naturally, this tactic gave the rampage shooters many minutes to continue rampaging.

      A rampage shooter in the Tacoma Mall (with and AR-15) was faced with one civilian who drew a pistol. After seeing the civilian with a gun, the rampage shooter shot at the civilian and took a defensive position in a store where he later surrendered to SWAT. Unfortunately the civilian who drew his gun was shot and paralyzed. No doubt his action saved the lives of many people.

      •  So are you advocating that armed guards be placed (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laurence Lewis

        in all schools?  

      •  Anecdotal evidence (5+ / 0-)

        You are citing one possibly unique example. Although that is an excellent way to BEGIN a debate, it is certainly not going to win it. Now follow up with some more supporting evidence.

        I'll offer a counter-point. If the Armed security officer is caught unawares, he may be disarmed and his own weapon used against innocents. If he has enough ammo to engage a rampage shooter, he has enough ammo to arm a rampage shooter. You have just made guns easier to get in the one place you don't want them!

        Which scenario is more likely if we have armed security officers at EVERY school? Also, are these armed security officers going to be properly trained, and just as importantly, properly screened? Have we just put the rampage shooter in a uniform and handed him a gun?

        I'm not saying that you are wrong. I'm saying that you haven't proved it yet.

        Less "WAAAAH!", more progress.

        by IndyGlenn on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 06:12:25 AM PST

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      •  Somehow I don't like to think of schools as (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Laurence Lewis, CrissieP

        "soft targets". That's using military-speak to describe a problem for which there is no effective military solution. A domestic arms race where the good guys and the crazies are continually trying to out-weaponize each other, will not end well for anyone.

      •  bullshit (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        teacherken, CrissieP

        if a gunman walks into a school firing, andnthe guard is on the other side of the building, how many are killed before the guard even gets near? it's the most bassackward means of pretending to address the problem, and only appeals to people desperate to avoid the real issue.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 09:55:51 AM PST

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        •  They will choose other places (0+ / 0-)

          Rampage shooters are not looking for a fight. They look for helpless victims.

          I dont think professional armed guards are necessary at every elementary school given the level of the threat. But some steps can be taken to make them less attractive to rampage shooters.

          Schools do not have to be fortresses. Nor does every teacher, or any teacher, need to be armed to deter rampage shooters.
          Keeping a single shotgun locked in the office and training the principals and vice principals how to use it would be enough.

          Though it is interesting that portions of the NRA proposal mirror China's school security policy:

          The education ministry will deploy more security guards in primary and middle schools as well as kindergartens to maintain better schoolyard security, reported Xinhua citing the Beijing Times.

          By 2013, the education facilities will have at least one guard, the report quoted Minister of Education Yuan Guiren as saying.

          Yuan called for standardized safety around schools, where patrolling and cutting out safety irregularities will be introduced. The regulation on school bus safety management will also be implemented.

          China’s school security worsened in 2010 after a series of attacks on kindergartens and primary school students.

          •  sorry but you are flat out wrong (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Laurence Lewis

            go back and check all the school shootings in the last decade and see how many involved outsiders -

            to my memory this is just the 2nd, the first being the Amish school, and the Amish would not have armed guards at one of their schools.

            School shootings are almost always the product of disaffected students, and are better addressed by better services in schools, including mental health support.

            "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

            by teacherken on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 12:04:18 PM PST

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          •  yeah (0+ / 0-)

            just like the columbine shooters, who went and looked elsewhere because their school had security. or something.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Sat Dec 22, 2012 at 01:16:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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