Skip to main content

View Diary: Celebrating the Prince of Peace in the Land of Guns (113 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  1,800 people fewer killed in NY every day (4+ / 0-)

    is not "cosmetic," good lord.

    that's a more than 80 percent reduction! I'm shocked it's that much, actually, and glad to hear it.

    Any social problem we reduce more than 80 percent with one law -- hell even in one generation -- is a miracle!

    Think about it: reduce poverty by 80 percent? Reduce deaths due to lack of clean water around the world by 80 percent? Reduce U.S. arms exports 80 percent? Reduce carbon emissions 80 percent? Reduce extinctions 80 percent?

    I'm glad you've acknowledged the fact that Canada's guns are mostly hunting rifles in your argument this year, but such argument -- just like the right-wingers, that it's not easy access to huge numbers of outrageously lethal guns but some other factor(s) that creates the gun violence statistics here in the U.S. is pretty weak tea, when you use Britain and Australia as a comparison.

    Britain has always had strong gun laws. Australia now has very restrictive gun laws, and saw a nearly 50 percent decrease in suicides and homicides by gun in the 10 years after they passed them.

    That's the facts, not a hunch about "lone wolves." Jesus, not that I'm a history expect, but I do know Britain had plenty of its own atrocities and an even higher opinion of "British exceptionalism" when it was the boss of the world and Australia's history of settlement is ugly, too, basically one big prison for Britain, with forced convict labor and massacre of aborigines.

    Yes, it's important for Americans to wake up to their history at home and around the world, to racism, exploitation, fear, etc., of course, but your theory re: deaths by gun violence is not a reality-based theory.

    •  C'mon. (4+ / 0-)
      such argument -- just like the right-wingers, that it's not easy access to huge numbers of outrageously lethal guns but some other factor(s) that creates the gun violence statistics here in the U.S. is pretty weak tea,
      He isn't saying it's one or the other; it's clearly both.  And no one will argue that greatly restricting access to the most deadly guns won't reduce the lethal toll of gun violence.  But that won't reduce the number of violent people we produce, who will still express that violence in other ways.

      The question for those who are narrowly, mistakenly focused on gun regulation alone is: why settle for fewer guns when we should be aiming to create fewer violent people, who will still commit violence, even with less lethality?   That people kill people is true, even if we're tired of hearing it as the NRA says it.  What kind of people kill people, & why do we have so many of them?  The overwhelming toll of gun violence is measured 1 or 2 at a time, not in these terrible massacres.  

      It's really sad that so many progressives are mistaking a big picture argument for a more socialist We Society as the big picture answer to all Violence, not just gun violence, for apparent sympathy with pro-gun cons.  That's not the point--the point is to dream big here.   Please join us!

      Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

      by Leftcandid on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:35:36 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  go back and re-read. This is what Moore argues: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mamamedusa
        I am sorry to offer this reality check on our much-needed march toward a bunch of well-intended, necessary – but ultimately, mostly cosmetic – changes to our gun laws. The sad facts are these: Other countries that have guns (like Canada, which has 7 million guns – mostly hunting guns – in their 12 million households) have a low murder rate.

        It's simply not true that other countries which have large numbers of guns like handguns and "assault rifles" manufactured to kill people have a low murder rate. Japan (the only other country Moore mentions that I missed in my first comment) has hardly any guns owned by civilians at all.

        At least Moore acknowledges the nature of guns in Canada in this iteration of his argument (he has not in the past). Handguns and "assault rifles" in Canada have low ownership percentages and are (were? don't know re: recent changes) highly regulated.

        Moore's argument is based on a fallacy, the same fallacy that the right-wingers cite: "It's not the guns, it's something else." Just because Moore's "something else" is different than the right-wingers' "something else" doesn't make it any less false, IMO.

        "Dreaming big"? I'm dreaming big that we can achieve an 80 percent reduction in gun violence at home nationwide. An even bigger dream? That a reduction in the political influence that the gun lobby has had might even cut the obscene number of guns and arms that the American weapons industry exports to developing countries.  America is still No. 1 in weapons exports, even if it's not No. 1 in other categories any more.

        •  Define low. The Nordic nations all have (0+ / 0-)

          fairly easy access to guns for Europe.

          They highest murder rate among the Nordic nations is Finland - and they only use guns in 14% of their homicides.  Mostly, they get drunk and stab each other while leaving their hunting rifles at home.

          Trying to reduce "gun violence" is just bizarre.  It's another way of fetishisizing guns.  

          The issue is reducing violence.  Sane gun laws can be an important part of that.

          "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

          by JesseCW on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 11:52:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  cx: for subject line: "every year" not every day, (0+ / 0-)

      of course, sorry for the typo.

    •  Australia hasn't had any substantial decrease (0+ / 0-)

      in suicides overall, though.

      Do you think people who kill themselves with ropes are less dead?

      I'm all for sensible gun control.  Hell, even the UK isn't nearly as restrictive as Americans think.

      It's not a solution to the problem of suicide - and that's close to 2/3rds of the gun deaths in the US.

       

      "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

      by JesseCW on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 11:48:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (158)
  • Community (74)
  • Elections (45)
  • Bernie Sanders (43)
  • Environment (43)
  • 2016 (41)
  • Hillary Clinton (36)
  • Spam (35)
  • Culture (35)
  • Republicans (34)
  • Climate Change (32)
  • Media (32)
  • Civil Rights (28)
  • Labor (27)
  • Congress (26)
  • Law (25)
  • Education (24)
  • Science (24)
  • Texas (23)
  • Barack Obama (22)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site