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View Diary: Celebrating the Prince of Peace in the Land of Guns (113 comments)

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  •  C'mon. (4+ / 0-)
    such argument -- just like the right-wingers, that it's not easy access to huge numbers of outrageously lethal guns but some other factor(s) that creates the gun violence statistics here in the U.S. is pretty weak tea,
    He isn't saying it's one or the other; it's clearly both.  And no one will argue that greatly restricting access to the most deadly guns won't reduce the lethal toll of gun violence.  But that won't reduce the number of violent people we produce, who will still express that violence in other ways.

    The question for those who are narrowly, mistakenly focused on gun regulation alone is: why settle for fewer guns when we should be aiming to create fewer violent people, who will still commit violence, even with less lethality?   That people kill people is true, even if we're tired of hearing it as the NRA says it.  What kind of people kill people, & why do we have so many of them?  The overwhelming toll of gun violence is measured 1 or 2 at a time, not in these terrible massacres.  

    It's really sad that so many progressives are mistaking a big picture argument for a more socialist We Society as the big picture answer to all Violence, not just gun violence, for apparent sympathy with pro-gun cons.  That's not the point--the point is to dream big here.   Please join us!

    Before elections have their consequences, Activism has consequences for elections.

    by Leftcandid on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 07:35:36 AM PST

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    •  go back and re-read. This is what Moore argues: (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      I am sorry to offer this reality check on our much-needed march toward a bunch of well-intended, necessary – but ultimately, mostly cosmetic – changes to our gun laws. The sad facts are these: Other countries that have guns (like Canada, which has 7 million guns – mostly hunting guns – in their 12 million households) have a low murder rate.

      It's simply not true that other countries which have large numbers of guns like handguns and "assault rifles" manufactured to kill people have a low murder rate. Japan (the only other country Moore mentions that I missed in my first comment) has hardly any guns owned by civilians at all.

      At least Moore acknowledges the nature of guns in Canada in this iteration of his argument (he has not in the past). Handguns and "assault rifles" in Canada have low ownership percentages and are (were? don't know re: recent changes) highly regulated.

      Moore's argument is based on a fallacy, the same fallacy that the right-wingers cite: "It's not the guns, it's something else." Just because Moore's "something else" is different than the right-wingers' "something else" doesn't make it any less false, IMO.

      "Dreaming big"? I'm dreaming big that we can achieve an 80 percent reduction in gun violence at home nationwide. An even bigger dream? That a reduction in the political influence that the gun lobby has had might even cut the obscene number of guns and arms that the American weapons industry exports to developing countries.  America is still No. 1 in weapons exports, even if it's not No. 1 in other categories any more.

      •  Define low. The Nordic nations all have (0+ / 0-)

        fairly easy access to guns for Europe.

        They highest murder rate among the Nordic nations is Finland - and they only use guns in 14% of their homicides.  Mostly, they get drunk and stab each other while leaving their hunting rifles at home.

        Trying to reduce "gun violence" is just bizarre.  It's another way of fetishisizing guns.  

        The issue is reducing violence.  Sane gun laws can be an important part of that.

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 11:52:43 AM PST

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