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View Diary: Pope gives special holiday hate speech against gays because it's Christmas (294 comments)

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  •  Independent thought? (15+ / 0-)
    Oh no! The pope is afraid that people will form their own opinions?
    If people were free to form their own opinions, the entire Roman Catholic business model would crumble to dust.  As an outsider with a Catholic spouse (and in-laws), it's my observation that the foundation of the Church's repeat business is that one may never question.  You must follow the Church's teachings strictly, and brainwash your children from birth so they will do the same when they grow up.  

    If you have an opinion other than what the Church declares to be the one and only truth, you have to leave that outside of the door and feel guilty for it when you go inside.  Women's rights?  LGBT rights?  Bah.  Mere sideshows to the absolute infallibility and omniscience of the Pope.  No, you may not have your own opinion.

    "It is not, you fucking liberal prick." ..My RW friend Dave's last words to me.

    by rb608 on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 09:01:35 AM PST

    •  The funny thing about it is that if you examine (7+ / 0-)

      the actual doctrines of the RCC, they say that a Catholic can make their own moral decisions consistent with their informed conscience.

      The kicker comes when you notice that their definition of "an informed conscience" is "a conscience in line with Church doctrine". So the whole "informed conscience" sideloop is a can act morally on an informed conscience only so long as that informed conscience is only informed by the doctrines of the Church.

      The last time the Republicans were this radical, they were working to elect former slaves to Congress. What a difference a century and a half makes!

      by jayjaybear on Mon Dec 24, 2012 at 09:37:46 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Not quite how I was taught (5+ / 0-)

        about the "primacy of conscience". Conscience should be informed by  Church doctrine, but not only by Church doctrine. The doctrine is just supposed to be a significant part of the mix. But I was taught that if you reach a conclusion in conflict with Church doctrine, and if you have sufficiently reflected, your conscience is the final arbiter.  

        •  Here's a few examples (6+ / 0-)

          of the way I was taught about conscience:

          "The following quotes help us to see how the church has always upheld the primacy of conscience even if at times this teaching was a well kept secret.

          "He who acts against his conscience loses his soul." (Fourth Lateran council, 1215)
          "It is better to perish in excommunication than to violate one's conscience." (St. Thomas Aquinas)

          "I shall drink . . To Conscience first, and to the Pope afterwards." (Cardinal John Henry Newman)

          "If Newman places conscience above authority, he is not proclaiming anything new with respect to the constant teaching of the Church." (Pope John Paul II)

          "In the final analysis, conscience is inviolable and no person is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his/her conscience, as the moral tradition of the Church attests." (Human Life in Our Day, U.S. Bishops Pastoral)

          "A human being must always follow the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were to deliberately act against it he would condemn himself." Catechism of the Catholic Church #1790)

          "We follow church leaders only to the extent that they themselves follow Christ. . . Some situations oblige one to obey God and one's own conscience rather than the leaders of the church. Indeed, one may even be obliged to accept excommunication rather than act against one's own conscience." (Cardinal Walter Kasper, Head of Ecumenical Matters at the Vatican.)

          Ratzinger should take a look at the last one.

          •  Let's not throw the Baby Jeeebus out (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gramofsam1, LSophia, Aunt Pat, rb608

            with the Holy Water. I'm not religious but I did attend a Catholic High School for 1.5 years, late 70s. Religion was taught by a guitar-playing Cat Stevens (that's what his name was then) look-alike and quite intellectually rigorous.

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