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  •  Solid lead bullets (.22s are made this way)... (7+ / 0-)

    ...won't, but larger caliber bullets made this way tend to deform (and thus are inaccurate).

    Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

    by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 01:13:15 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  so why not ban them (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dkosdan, elwior

      and let hunters use the bullets that can't kill people wearing protective vests?

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 01:22:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  For one thing, because solid lead bullets gum up.. (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kyril, happy camper, Creosote, elwior, ER Doc, Smoh

        ...the rifling in modern hunting rifles.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 01:33:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  how badly? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dkosdan, elwior

          it seems a mall societal price to pay in order to save lives.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 01:40:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Badly. It's my view that the last thing we... (12+ / 0-)

            ...want to do if we really want stricter gun laws (and I certainly do) is to collide head on with the millions of gun-owners who (based on polls, including our own DKos poll) are allies on issues like banning civilian versions of assault rifles and high-capacity magazines, and requiring robust background checks and possibly even licensing.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 01:49:21 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  i agree (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, koNko, dkosdan, elwior

              and i've always supported hunting rights. if meat eaters can hunt their own and stay off the supermarkrt grid, more power to them, but it seems like someone should be able to invent a bullet that can penetrate animal flesh and not protective vests.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 02:22:59 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Step by Step (0+ / 0-)

              High capacity and quick change magazines and semi-automatic assault weapons are a place to start.

              But my question is if they are banned, what is the chance of the existing ones being purged because the inventory existing is already so great?

              Perhaps one point needed if they are grandfathered is to ban any resale of existing.

              Your thoughts?

              What about my Daughter's future?

              by koNko on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 11:01:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sale and resale would be banned. But the problem.. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                koNko

                ...with previous ban is that it allowed mags made before ban to continue to be sold retail and between private parties. There were millions available.

                Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                by Meteor Blades on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 11:25:31 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Right. (0+ / 0-)

                  That's why I ask the question, because (as is usual) Grandfathering lets wackos hold the inventory and (I suppose) the expectation of that drives sales higher every time they feel threaten by the possibility of regulations.

                  So getting a law on the books to arrest new sales is an important fist step, but not really much of a solution.

                  I'm sure some people are stocking-up on these parts to sell them later, it would be pretty hard to stop private sales between individuals.

                  What about my Daughter's future?

                  by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:07:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Man MB, you were on point in this subdebate. nt (0+ / 0-)

              The Mayans knew about Chained CPI!!!!

              by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:54:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  They also generate a lot more lead dust (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Mathazar, Sunspots, dkosdan, Creosote, DrFood

            which is inhaled by the shooter and (worse) bystanders, including children who go hunting/target shooting with their parents. Jacketed bullets are dramatically better for shooters' health.

            (Jacketed hollow points are lead-dust-free and usually won't penetrate a ballistic vest, but some hunters don't like them because they create messier wounds. They're also significantly more lethal to any human who isn't wearing a ballistic vest.)

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 02:05:07 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  i bet (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mathazar

              someone could make a mint inventing a better hunting bullet. although the nra types would ptobably go smith & wesson on them.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 02:28:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, there's a tradeoff (8+ / 0-)

                in basic physics.

                Option a: Bullet expands on impact, either because it's soft (solid lead) or because it's designed with structural weak points (hollow point). The expanded bullet delivers its force over a larger area, so it can't penetrate a ballistic vest, but it creates larger, more damaging wounds in any material it can penetrate including human flesh.

                Option b: Bullet does not expand significantly on impact (solid-point full-metal-jacket). The non-expanded bullet creates a much smaller, neater hole, but since it delivers its force over a much smaller area, it's much more likely to penetrate ballistic material.

                Think of the difference between a sharp knife and a dull knife. When they encounter a material that the dull knife can't cut, the sharp knife will do more damage; the dull knife will only tear up the surface. But when they encounter a material that both can cut, the sharp knife will make a nice clean straight cut that could be repaired pretty easily, while the dull knife will create a nasty mangled cut/tear.

                "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                by kyril on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 02:42:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  even so (0+ / 0-)

                  with modern materials there must be a way to test ratios of size and malleability. does anyone even experiment on an advanced level?

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 03:40:54 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, yes (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    sethtriggs
                    does anyone even experiment on an advanced level?
                    The military funds a pretty good amount of research on both ammunition and body armor.

                    Really, though, it's just hard to get around the physics.

                    "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                    by kyril on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 06:13:02 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  if one material at one gauge (0+ / 0-)

                      can penetrate just so far, i would think tthey could come up with a different material at the same gauge tht couldn't. perhaps that would mean its dissipating within smaller perimeters, but it seems like something that could happen. materials sciences have achieved remarkable things.

                      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                      by Laurence Lewis on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 06:50:42 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  At what velocity? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril

                        Big variable.

                        What about my Daughter's future?

                        by koNko on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 11:27:07 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  certainly a factor (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          koNko

                          but i wonder if any serious research is being done. i'm guessing military research isn't about limiting and containing a bullet's destructive power.

                          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 09:52:29 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  To the contrary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Laurence Lewis

                            I think the military research covers all angles because their broadly stated goals would be:

                            - make something to defeat the other guy
                            - not be defeated by the other guy if he has the same/similar

                            And the information gained in research can often be applied to both tasks.

                            But the question might be: how much of this research focuses on small arms?

                            I'll assume quite a bit because armies have to standardize small arms over decades, so improvements would tend to be incremental and focused on the weapons that exist, which is fortunate in this case since the weapons we are concerned with are civilian versions of military hardware.

                            Can this knowledge be tapped? Is anyone focused on less, rather than more lethal bullets?

                            You raise good questions. Finding solutions might prove difficult, but that's not a reason not to try.

                            What about my Daughter's future?

                            by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:21:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  What you want are rubber/plastic bullets (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    dkosdan

                    I think kyril states the basic problem well.

                    More malleable materials than lead are few and expensive and this doesn't solve the problem he states.

                    The only approaches I see would be hard materials inside of a soft jacket (i.e., the opposite approach of a hollow point in a hard jacket) that would deform to dissipate energy and spread it over a larger surface area provided the impact resistance of the protective material was greater than n but not if less.

                    That's a pretty difficult threshold to define and engineer a solution given the variables of caliber, mass and impact velocity (which I assume to be continuously variable from maximum down to zero or at least non-fatal velocity, whatever that is).

                    Not a simple problem.

                    I work in materials science and have done a lot of work on fracture mechanisms and sacrificial deformation including development of engineering plastics to have antagonistic properties (such as combined rigidity and elasticity, which can be done with copolymers/block copolymers) but the problem here is we want a material/form that is smart enough to discern the difference between targets with overlapping ranges of impact resistance over a range of mass/velocity. And I have to say, rate (velocity) is very important to factor.

                    The other approach is making better bullet-proof armor that is light enough and cheap enough for universal use by law-abiding citizens. Kevlar is really tough, but not very cheap.

                    What about my Daughter's future?

                    by koNko on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 11:26:26 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  And all that lead ends up out there in the world (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laurence Lewis, Sunspots

          ... to be consumed by scavengers (and hungry predators).  One of the biggest obstacles to wider recovery of California Condors has been lead poisoning.  

          •  I don't think so (0+ / 0-)

            condors get lead from other sources.

            Where lead bullet have been eliminated from hunting areas, condors are getting lead in increasing amounts. Recent studies show lead bullets not to be a factor.

            Science is self correcting.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 08:32:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  They also spread lead in the environment (0+ / 0-)
        •  And lead in the meat that hunters eat (0+ / 0-)
          •  actually not (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dkosdan

            or should I say not as much as doing something like say living in California would.

            In a study of hunters who eat game shot with lead in North Dakota done by the CDC it was found that though hunters had an increased level of lead than a control group in North Dakota, that level was much lower than the general population of the US.

            If one  is worried about lead, move out of CA, NY, or MA first, if you are still concerned leave any major urban area, if you are still concerned and you live in an extremely rural state, then think about game meat.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Tue Dec 25, 2012 at 08:35:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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