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  •  I think that if that many whites were killed (40+ / 0-)

    but not all togeather (ie not a mass shooting)
    there would be much less uproar/upset.

    I think that if a school full of young children who were Black were shot up and killled all at once, there would be MORE of an uproar than where people are killed in individual incidents.

    It's the grouping all togeather...something with how the human mind works makes that feel worse. And that they were all little kids also

    and then, lastly, it may be color. The only test would be GOd forbid a school of mostly or all Black kids were shot up and twenty were killed and the public reactoin was not like this

    I think it would not be quite like this but it would be MORE than when people even kids are shot up in separate incidences across the country.

    SO I think race and middle or upper middle class ness is an overlay but not all of it.

    •  The group effect is definitely part of the (14+ / 0-)

      equation. I'm not denying that. But given the ratios if only 3 black children would killed it would be the same scale and yet I'm willing to be it wouldn't get one hundredth of the news coverage. We're basically blind to the problem of gun violence against blacks in this country. We need to stop being that way.

      To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

      by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 04:57:26 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  disagree. Feels like reaction to Black kids killed (8+ / 0-)

        in otherwise identical circumstances would be many fold higher than 1/100th of the reaction we are getting now with these mostly White kids.

        Even if it is 1/4 or 1/3 or even 1/10th as much news coverage and reaction (many fold less than 1/100th) it would be a sad day as we should react the same regardless of the color killed.

        It is a terrible thing that we'd react less to Black kids killed and I agree that we would. Just not at the ratio you state IMO.

        When we are teasing racial bias out is is important, I believe, to not exaggerate it. People hear us better when we are accurate and don't discount our pronouncements as much.  I am not saying you are exaggerating necessarily yourself, but if I were to say 1/100th I would be, because we disagree.

        •  The murder rate for black children is higher (9+ / 0-)

          but because of several factors we're likely to never see a massacre on the same scale as Sandy Hook or even Columbine. Black children in CA are 5 times as likely to be murdered as white children. Why aren't we seeing 5 times the outrage? As I pointed out, proportionately 3 black children killed in a single incident is on the same scale as Sandy Hook. But because of the fact whites outnumber blacks 6:1 we're unlikely to ever see a tragedy of the scale of Sandy Hook in a black community. That's white privilege in action. Because we don't see it until it crosses some threshold we've set for ourselves we don't see when it happens to others on the same (or much, much worse) scale.

          To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

          by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 05:45:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  you pointed out, but I don't follow it (12+ / 0-)

            As I pointed out, proportionately 3 black children killed in a single incident is on the same scale as Sandy Hook

            So are you saying 3 Black kids dying is the same as approx 20 White kids and the public reaction should be equivalent?

            It's not and it's largely because the SHEAR NUMBERS ALL AT ONCE IN ONE PLACE are what the news media and the public react to

            Notice the other shootings this week...2 to 4 people killed at once. In one incident I believe all were WHite. Very little publicity comparative to Sandy Hook I believe because LOW NUMBERS AT ONCE and that they were Adults not kids

            •  ie fair or not scale or not humans don't react (4+ / 0-)

              that way...to scale, proportionally
              they react to each single incident as a whole

              so the freak out at twenty killed more than three...of any color

              Race matters I agree
              but it might help your argument if you get clear on the parts that are not race, IMO.
              expecting people to react to scale isn't how all human beings Are made.

              •  But--newscasters kept talking about their own kids (0+ / 0-)

                One of the reasons Newtown hit such a chord was because the upper 10%, the media, the VIPs in Washington, all saw their kids in the dead. They said how their children were the same age.

                Twenty black children, no matter how cute, with their hair in ribbons, would not make those people think, "she could be mine".

                Conservation is green energy

                by peggy on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:05:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  it was kids in school and empathising with parents (0+ / 0-)

                  they sent their kids to school that day too

                  again the only test is if a school with minority kids gets shot up and twenty six year olds die.

                  I am telling you parents would think of their kids as well. Many white parents would

                  however...
                  I do surmise that it would possibly be less resonant for some people but not all.

            •  But that's the problem (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kyril, mwm341, politicalceci, AoT, Aquarius40

              We extremely unlike to see that event happen. So since it won't reach some self-imposed threshold we're blind to it happening. That's a big problem with white privilege -- we look at absolutes and don't see the problem in other communities so it doesn't get the same reaction. It's not "our" problem and that's wrong.

              To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

              by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 06:50:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let's all hope that (4+ / 0-)

                "we're extremely unlikely to see that event happen." I'm glad you live in a world where it seems less likely that a black school gets shot up.

                •  Mathematically it's the world we do live in though (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mwm341, AoT

                  And that sucks because it means we're largely blind to the problems of minorities in respect to gun violence as well as many other issues. They don't have the voice to be heard. That they'd have to wait for the rare moments they have a tragedy on the mystical scale of outrage required for us to see the problem is a shame.

                  To me progress is not so much a goal as it is a process and I believe it will not follow a straight course. Remember, the drops of water that form the river may not take the shortest path but they will still reach the ocean.

                  by ontheleftcoast on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:01:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess I get what you're saying, but I don't... (3+ / 0-)

                    think that you can just boil it all down to proportional mathematics. Given the hatred that many people hold and display towards blacks, I'd think someone going in and slaughtering black children would be a more likely scenario than a Sandy Hook.

                    Also, you're absolutely right that there is a significant racial component to gun violence in this country. But in the case of Sandy Hook, gun violence is sort of secondary to the mass murder aspect of it all. The gun stuff is the only part that's rectifiable. While we wouldn't get Wayne LaPierre, I assure you the news would have been just as focused and hyperbolic had it been a mass poisoning. I can also guarantee you, as much as I can speak on behalf of white people, that the attention would have been just as focused on a black elementary school that had 20 kids taken out. The media doesn't care about an individual black child, but it sure as hell would care about 20.

                    Now, I will grant you that if it happened in Compton or the Bronx, the media would blame black people and AA culture, but if it happened in, say, North Carolina, I truly believe there would be no difference in coverage. I know you don't believe that, and I doubt you want to hear that, but I think its absolutely true.

              •  Well here: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bigjacbigjacbigjac

                These are the victims of  the Virginia Tech massacre:

                http://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

                http://image.guardian.co.uk/...

                http://www.crossfitinception.com/...

                Was there less sympathy, concern or outrage because of the number of persons of color  who were victims? I count around  half, based on appearance and where foreign students were from.

                I just recall Americans being horrified that yet again students were killed in a place where they should have been safe by someone that should have been protected from.  

                © grover


                So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

                by grover on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 10:55:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't think there was the same reaction at all (0+ / 0-)

                  Yes,  people were sad, but people are all outraged now. Maybe it's just the age, but I noticed the girl whose picture they use the most from Sandy Hook is the little blonde girl. Coincidence? I don't think so.

                  My dog is a member of Dogs Against Romney: He rides inside.

                  by adigal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:31:02 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  age/all the littlest of children who go to school (0+ / 0-)

                    we have not had a shooting of all little kids before

                  •  several 'little blong girls" were killed (0+ / 0-)

                    if it's who I'm thinking of, that would be because her particular parents got out there and talked to the press about their daughter within a day or two of the shooting...the Dad is the only parent who did a press conference. People grieve differently ...many other parents didn't even give photos of their kid out right away.

                •  Virginia Tech (0+ / 0-)

                  is disproportionately white and male ... and when I say disproportionate, I mean off the charts.

                  Seventy percent of the student body is white and less than one-half of one percent self-identifies as black or African-American.  And, fifty-eight percent of total enrollment is male.

                  Virgina Tech Student Overview

                  I would argue, based on these data, that the VT massacre is equally illustrative of the phenomenon of selective national outrage primarily when bastions of white privilege is involved and not the universality of outrage irrespective of race, class or economic disadvantage.

                  The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                  by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 02:45:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I disagree, I think (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, jplanner

                    I think there would have been just as much outrage if those shootings had taken place at...oh, The University of Michigan or UCLA, or (as happened here), Northern Illinois...or, heaven forbid, Harvard or MIT.

                    Those stats that you cite have more to do with the fact that Va. tech is a Tech school. And that Va Tech was the largest mass shooting on a campus in the history of the country.

                    •  Pulled from the NIU website (0+ / 0-)

                      Here's the profile

                      Ethnic/Racial Categories–Undergraduate

                      •White: 61.3%
                      •Black: 16.3%
                      •Hispanic/Latino: 11.7%
                      •Asian: 4.9%
                      •Race Unknown: 2%
                      •2 or more races: 2.4%
                      •Non-res. Alien: 1.2%
                      •Native American: less than 1%
                      •Native Hawaiian: less than 1%      
                      Male/Female Categories

                      •Undergraduate: 49.8% male; 50.2% female
                      •Graduate: 42.0% male; 58.0% female
                      Average High School Class Rank and ACT Score

                      •High School Class Rank (percentile) for NIU freshmen: 61.9
                      •High School Grade Point Average for NIU freshmen: 3.11
                      •ACT Score for NIU freshmen: 22
                      •ACT Score for high school

                      •  Your data supports (0+ / 0-)

                        my point.  NIU is only marginally more representative of the national black population, which is about 14% as of the 2010 Census.

                        2010 Census

                        The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                        by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:43:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  UH (0+ / 0-)

                          POC does not necessarily equal black, for one.

                          And actually, that's a few percentage points above the percentage of people that live in Illinois that are black.

                          •  There is absolutely no marginal differential .... (0+ / 0-)

                            14% of the Illinois population is black, per the 2010 Census that is the most accurate and current demographic data available.

                            And Dekalb ... really?

                            You want to argue this point?

                            Unbelievable.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:52:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  and what about the female population (0+ / 0-)

                          which is kind of a low percentage for a school in Illinois, actually.

                          •  And what about the female population? (0+ / 0-)

                            All you keep doing is refuting your own objection that these academic populations do not represent anything but the dominant cultural paradigm.

                            Please ... is under-representation so difficult to comprehend -- let alone conceptualize its implications?

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 09:56:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm going to be a little more mature here (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            But what is you point?

                            That an HBCU is safer than a predominately white school?

                            I might allow that you might be safer from a mass shooting at an HBCU than at a predominately white college.

                            But what about other types of crimes?

                            Your deception here is the suggestion that mass shootings have become SOP at predominately white colleges, The truth is you're about as likely to be involved in one of those shootings at a white college as it is that you would be involved in a plane crash.

                          •  Ok ... thanks for that effort (0+ / 0-)

                            and I will reciprocate in the same spirit.

                            This diary addresses the issues of gun control and white privilege stemming from the Newtown tragedy.

                            More than one commenter has disagreed that the reaction to this slaughter of babies -- all white babies -- reflects any form of disparate national treatment between black firearm related homicides and these more typical white on white violence of rampage killings.  These latter events more often occur at public institutions, whether grade schools, universities, public malls or workplaces.  These are bastions of white privilege, where the concept of safety and security is most threatened and it has engendered a public policy reaction that seemingly ignores the vastly larger problem in disadvantaged minority communities that correlates to race, class and economic under-privilege.

                            I have nowhere suggested mass shootings have become SOP at predominantly white colleges and your suggestion that I am deceived on that point is entirely misplaced and you have actually missed the point, repeatedly.  Virginia Tech was supposedly offered as an example that refuted the notion that white privilege is implicated in these rampage killings -- also more often inflicted by those with mental health issues rather than crime associated with disadvantaged communities.  VT, however, is nothing if not an institution reflecting the dominant white male hierarchy -- as are all other universities you mentioned.

                            HBCUs are NOT bastions of white privilege in the same manner that black churches and minority communities are not. These institutions may have their own problems unique to their own cultural concerns and characteristics -- for example anti-gay bias and even violence, which you in fact identified.  

                            Anti-gay attitudes and discrimination may be related to this larger problem of gun violence and white privilege.  I don't know, but it is a subject well worth discussing -- in a mature and civil manner.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 01:36:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Well ... (0+ / 0-)

                      you haven't provided any data to support your belief, whereas the facts demonstrate that the VT student body is extremely over-representative of the white male hierarchy.

                      And no institution you mentioned, including NIU, is identifiable as an HBCU and therefore they are all subject to the same essential characteristic as VT.  Until you can address that point, what is shown by the evidence and what you believe seems to be at distinct variance -- the entire point of this Diary and the poor cognitive appreciation of the public of the positive correlation of racial and economic disadvantage with gun violence.

                      NIU: 61% White/16% Black
                      UoM: 62% White/4.4% Black
                      UCLA: 32% White/3% Black
                      Harvard: na White/10% Black
                      MIT: 39% White/10% Black

                      NIU
                      UoM
                      UCLA
                      Harvard
                      MIT

                      The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                      by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:39:51 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Honey please (0+ / 0-)

                        quit the feminist black nationalist bullshit and talk English.

                        NIU is nothing like those other schools and as a gay ma (as well as a black man) it would be dangerous for me to set my feet on an HBCU campus.

                        Need we bring up incidents at HBCU's? How about the bigotry?

                        And you're talking to someone that attended an HBCU and preferred to hang out at "the white campus" in town.

                        And the outlier there is MIT, actually.

                        I love it when black folks come here to spout this type of shit, as if an HBCU is paradise, I damn near got killed on an HBCU campus for being gay

                        •  Oh honey bun ... (0+ / 0-)

                          You're obviously an insecure and judgmental wanna-be pedant without a clue.  I bring up HBCU's as a counter-point to your own transparent infatuation with the white and privileged and that is your analytical response?  What a simpleton pissoir ... you don't deserve the degree you received.

                          But by all means, keep trying to classify me ... whether queer, straight, man, woman, black, white or fucking polka dot ... it simply reveals that your ignorance is subordinated only to your own racist and mysoginyst bullshit.  I now have utterly no respect for your pathetic racial and masculine insecurity.  

                          If you have one iota of fact or wit,  please do try to keep up with the real world beyond your own personal myopia.  And I certainly have no doubt that you would prefer to"hang" with those who don't directly threaten your own massive self-loathing.  The world is full of self-projecting assholes and I have the sincere displeasure of meeting one -- Chitown Kev, what a predictable and boring parody.

                          So go learn basic academic literacy and then get over your grotesque self-absorption.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:33:34 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  When I ask someone not to respond to me (0+ / 0-)

                            that's exactly what I mean.

                          •  Are you clever enough (0+ / 0-)

                            to see the double irony there of no self-awareness coupled with self-absorption in a response to me asking for no response to you?

                            You can post, I can post ... it's a community forum.  Get over yourself, sweetie.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 11:52:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  And by the way, (0+ / 0-)

                          since you brought them up let me know if you want any real information about UCLA or the University of Michigan. I'd be happy to share what I can about Ann Arbor and Westwood to a wide-eyed boy with silly little dreams.

                          Dekalb, though ... you're on your own.  

                          But do keep swimming upstream ... eyes on the prize, girlfriend.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 11:16:59 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  "boom bye bye" was a party starter at my college (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Chitown Kev

                          sad to say.

                          This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

                          by mallyroyal on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 07:45:26 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm trying to approach this person (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mallyroyal

                            in a more mature way.

                            It's still highly highly highly unlikely that you will be shot and killed in a mass shooting at a "white college."

                          •  Delusional Self-Absorption ... (0+ / 0-)

                            "Honey please, quit the feminist black nationalist bullshit and talk English."

                            Racist, mysoginist and demonstrated illiteracy is not "approaching in a mature way" ... unless you are Chitown Kev, a silly little self-parody.

                            And Honey Bun ... don't call me out and then expect me not to respond. Put on your man-pants and nut up, sweetie.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 11:42:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and I said that I was going to be more mature (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            about things post-coffee drip...

                            and you still haven't answered my substansive question or...let me put it like this...since I'm in Chicago.

                            Where would I stand the best chance, statistically speaking, of avoiding a mass shooting of the Va. Tech/NIU type, Chicago State University (which s/b an HBCU, if it's not) or...let's say the Chicago campus of the University of Illinois?

                            Chicago State would probably be safer as it regards mass shootings (if we're operating strictly on a "white school" v. "black school" thing.

                            But the difference there would be so marginal as to be non-existent; so your beef really doesn't say all that much; mass shootings at colleges and universities in the United States are very very very rare.

                            and, of course, you choose to completely ignore gender...or even private/public status of universities, really...

                            oh, and any college campus (black or white, public or private) would be safer than quite a few black neighborhoods...for different reasons.

                          •  and please (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            explain this shooting here and how it fits into alll of your theories.

                          •  and if you read everything that I've written (0+ / 0-)

                            in this thread, I've never said that whiteness has nothing to do with any of these shootings (much less the media reactions).

                          •  In fact (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            Here's some necessary evidence as to what happens when such a shooter is other than "white".

                            I know that it's huffington post...where bigotry reigns, but the racism in that thread is disgusting.

                          •  Your link (0+ / 0-)

                            was to the one you provided above and not to HP, so I can't comment on it.

                            I do agree completely though, HP comments can be a disgusting cesspool of bigotry and ignorance, whether in racial matters or anti-gay hatred, as but two examples.  

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 03:52:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My bad... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ancblu

                            that's what I get for juggling all these sites and windows aT ONCE...

                          •  I did not see that news (0+ / 0-)

                            when it occurred ... is that a function of my missing something that was well reported or rather another example of minority violence (in this case, principally Korean) that does not sufficiently threaten our dominant cultural paradigm of white privilege?

                            I read your link and did just a brief bit of further research on that incident as you requested.

                            As for fitting with "all my theories," it appears that this is another example of a rampage killing by someone with a history of serious mental illness.  His criminal case hearing on his mental capacity to stand trial has been postponed until this coming January.  This incident is clearly characteristic of this much rarer form of gun violence ... which does not suggest that various forms of rampage killings cannot be committed by minorities against any racial group including other minorities -- think of the John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo sniper shootings as another example.

                            Whether relevant our not to our exchange here, my policy preference in dealing with rampage killings involves both better access to health care, including mental health, to provide early screening and treatment.  In addition, we should develop an appropriate gun purchase registry that would limit access to firearms for those who evidence a higher propensity to violence as one finds in major psychiatric disorders.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:28:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not sure what you think (0+ / 0-)

                            my "beef" is.  What you believe I ignore is simply not correct.

                            Mass rampage killings, whether on a public or private campus or any other institutional setting of our predominantly white male hierarchical society are rare -- the multi-national data suggests about 1 event per year for every 100 to 200 million in population.  

                            And yet, these events are what principally motivate much of our current public discourse on "controlling" gun violence -- at the same time the acute national crisis of gun violence in disadvantaged and racial minority communities is effectively ignored.  

                            Based on the statistical frequency of different types of gun violence, I do argue that white privilege is a central feature of our misplaced national response.  So my real "beef," to use your term, is actually that we are not properly addressing the underlying factors that positively correlate to the frequency and intensity of metropolitan gun violence -- age, gender, income, education, etc.  

                            The progressive agenda would do well to emphasize the root causes rather than the chimerical "banning" if we want to seriously address this significant public crisis -- even including more accessible and affordable mental health care for those more typically associated with rampage killings.

                            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                            by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 03:47:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  I just thought about something (0+ / 0-)

                        The syntax and the subject matter of your posts are a little too familiar to me from another website.

                        Please DO NOT respond to any of my post and I will not respond to yours, please.

                        •  Looking for a bogeyman (0+ / 0-)

                          under every bush.  No surprise there.

                          In truth, we have no familiarity whatsoever, thankfully, and it is only your insecure fantasies that lead you to that little tingle that you "know me" from somewhere.

                          Syntax, subject matter?  My ... you are a silly little parody, aren't you.

                          Please?  You have no idea, child.

                          The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                          by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:45:46 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  example below of my logic (0+ / 0-)

                that aspect of "blindness" is about the impact of the shear number being killed at once and that part of it is NOT about White privilidge. Seems like you are confouding these things.
                Three kids slaughtered at once just does not have the impact on anyone like twenty.
                I am not denying racial bias in the coverage nor in the reactions to the Sandy Hook tragedy but have been pushing to show that it can't be  compared to your scenario.

                A way to show what I am saying is this. Say there are 20 women a year murdered by their abusive husbands and boyfriends that they had a restraining order against, within a certain geographical area. These inividual incidences do not cause an uproar. But if 20 women (say in a meeting) were killed at once by some man who had a restraining order against him, it would be on the news round the clock. Everone would be talking about it.

                If you looked at the first instance (individual murders), you could conclude that people didn't care about women. But you would not conclude that in the aftermath of the second group killing. Anyone looking at comparing the situations (analogous to comparing the individual killings of Black kids with group killing in Sandy Hook) would think that people cared more about the women in the group than they cared about the individual women for some reason. If the women in the group had a characteristic (racial, or age, or other demographic) characteristic different from the individuals an observer might ERRONEOUSLY think that it was do to that characteristic (analogous to white priviledge you percieve in the Sandy Hook case as reason why people care about this group dying over individual Black kids) not the group being slayed togeather.

                I can't continue if you do not try to follow this logic.There are in fact so many examples of White privilge in the coverage of Sandy Hook...things even grated on me as a white woman from  a working class background and modest means. "things like this don't happen here" "we are a nice town, a safe town"...upper middle class privledge as well. As someone pointed out...people looked at those kids and were reminde of their own, true.

                Again, the split attention group of mostly White kids vis Indiviual Black kids...it just cannot be compared. It is erroneous to draw any conclussions from that because of the number difference.

                But it would be interesting to point out obvious incidences of excessive White (I also saw very much Class privlege myself...I think the reporters many NYC based many with friends who lived IN that part of CT upper midle class themselves...I think they felt it happened to people like them and NOT just because the were White).

            •  Correct: 30,000 gunshot deaths per year. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ontheleftcoast, jplanner

              How many white OR black shooting victims do you actually hear about?
                Aurora, Virginia Tech, Gabby Giffords, Sandy Hook...
              You've heard about those because of the number of victims and in the case of the Tucson massacre, one of the victims was a member of Congress.
                Otherwise, a shooting death is just three or four paragraphs in the local paper.

          •  Not to dispute your main point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            mwm341

            Which I agree with (well-known problem to the point of unhealthy comfort, if you will) I'm not sure I follow your reasoning about "scaling".

            To scale the rate of black children murdered and apply it to white, a greater absolute number of white children would be killed.

            To scale a "Sandy Hook" incident to the black population, a smaller absolute number of black children (per incident) would be killed.

            Correct?

            So for us to see a Sandy Hook scale incident in the black community, you would factor the rate to the population.

            And in such case (where fewer absolute victims are required to achieve the same rate) it's quite possible there are already quite a few Sandy Hooks in the black community that are being ignored.

            Which is far worse.

            You would have to hunt out examples to validate that, but I find it a credible scenario.

            Lastly, the only new point I'd like to add to the discussion is that the solution is color blind: Ban the weapons and take them back as quickly as possible because access leads to tragedy.

            What about my Daughter's future?

            by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:41:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You should differentiate (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT

              different types of gun violence to make a more effective comparison with your point -- to the extent that is possible.

              Rampage killings by social isolates are very different in cause, effect and demographics than suicide and other more prevalent forms of criminal injuries and homicides involving firearms.

              The principle of scaling has limited utility if these critical distinctions are ignored.

              The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

              by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:15:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I agree. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jplanner, ancblu

                But my comment above is in response to the diarist who is making these comparisons with what I consider to be a logical flaw that actually works against his argument.

                Regardless, the diarist has a valid point about the demographics of gun violence and how it is treated by the MSM and society at large. To paraphrase an expert on mass-murder - Joseph Stalin - an isolated cluster of 26 deaths is a national tragedy but a million everyday shooting deaths is a statistic.

                I'm glad Mr. Obama keeps noting both because they have a common root cause - access to deadly weapons.

                What about my Daughter's future?

                by koNko on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:15:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  basically my point, which you judge harshly (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ancblu

                elsewhere and got kind of personal

                I think you responded to my comment in isolation not as part of a conversation

                •  I apologize if I misunderstood (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jplanner

                  your point and perspective in its context.  I did agree with another reply that raised a similar concern suggested by your language.  This subject matter -- gun control and white privilege is a minefield fraught with visceral emotion.

                  The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                  by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 01:42:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I don't agree with this. (0+ / 0-)
        •  "otherwise identical circumstances" (7+ / 0-)

          you mean an almost all black population, with a majority of black teachers, majority of black students, majority of black residents in a community where the median income is clearly around $100 K (I'm just guesstimating there), in a sleepy little community that doesn't even need "gates" to be "gated" because the income barrier does the trick....

          You see my point? "otherwise identical circumstances" is a ridiculous proposal.

          I know there are a few mostly black upper to upper middle class communities in this country, but not many.

          At any rate, to speak in terms of "otherwise identical circumstances" ignores the fact that part of the problem is that African Americans are very unlikely to ever experience "otherwise identical circumstances". And that, too, is a function of white privilege.

          •  followed. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, grumpelstillchen

            this is gold:

            you mean an almost all black population, with a majority of black teachers, majority of black students, majority of black residents in a community where the median income is clearly around $100 K (I'm just guesstimating there), in a sleepy little community that doesn't even need "gates" to be "gated" because the income barrier does the trick....

            You see my point? "otherwise identical circumstances" is a ridiculous proposal.

            even though I went to a college that drew a lot of kids from exactly such an enclave in MD, this is an excellent point to make.

            This comment is dedicated to my mellow Adept2U and his Uncle Marcus

            by mallyroyal on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 10:19:00 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yet not the one i was making (0+ / 0-)

              exactly the same circumstances was misleading
              I meant circumstances that mattered vis a vis the killing itself...ie cirumstances of the shooting
              numbers of people killed
              ages killed
              and in a school

              because that is what we were talking about...diarist is trying to compare individual isolated killings of people of all ages

              to killing of twenty little kids at school...

              saying that emotional reacton of public should be the same and that it's not is racial bias

              I say....you can't compare them and conclude that.

          •  Exactly correct. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, grumpelstillchen

            I'm also extremely disappointed in the statement:

            When we are teasing racial bias out is is important, I believe, to not exaggerate it.
            Good lord ... so when identifying the scope and degree of white hierarchical privilege -- "teasing out"? -- we can only go so far before it becomes too uncomfortable to acknowledge, and thus it must be an exaggeration.

            If there was ever an entirely unaware and self-defeating assertion, we've just seen it.

            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 03:57:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  you want people to see it and take it seriously (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ancblu

              it's important not to exaggerate it

              I'm a minority also but not racially. I live this dynamic first hand.

              If you read my posts you see that I have no discomfort...my objection is out of logic (illogic of comparing apples to oranges) not discomfort

              I also say elsewhere that I saw race and class bias in the coverage of Sandy Hook and in the reactions even of residents.

              I am not even disputing whether something is true or not but that if it's logical to conclude something from a comparison the diarist is making.

              •  I do agree that exaggeration (0+ / 0-)

                or disregard of data does not help in public discourse or crafting appropriate policy solutions.

                I live in the rural west where firearms are commonplace -- and I own several myself and support ownership rights.  I am also very aware that the problem of gun violence is serious national problem and we need to craft appropriate regulatory solutions that truly address where the problem lies.

                In my judgment, the principal correlating factors of our gun violence epidemic are primarily driven by under-privilege -- in education, employment, health care and youth.  

                By ignoring these key drivers and focusing on emotional responses -- such as banning "black gun" assault weapons when urban handguns are the primary issue -- we will not be addressing or solving the root problems.

                The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 02:47:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  poster said (0+ / 0-)

              response to killing of Black kids would be 1/100th of white kids

              seems very large.

              You think that's true? If twenty Black kids were killed in their school the public and the media reaction would be 1/100th of that for Sandy Hook?

              if it is much more than 1/1ooth, it would be fair to call what she wrote an exaggeration would it not?

              •  Why does it have to be (0+ / 0-)

                "at a school"?  Black children (under 18) are killed at a rate far more alarming than what occurred at Newtown -- on a regular basis.  And it is a fact that our society reacts differently to this reality, which is the essential point suggested by the Diary and a great many recommends.

                So is it truly an exaggeration to say 1/10, 1/100 or even 1/1000 if our society is in fact ignoring the far more serious problem of firearm crime, injuries and fatalities by handguns in disadvantaged communities?  I think not. If you disagree that's fine, but I don't believe the fractional value that you've objected to is the relevant point.

                The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 02:36:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm just trying to hold the comparison ..reactions (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ancblu

                  to the killings of two races...as closely as possible Otherwise extra variables contaminate the comparison between the two scenarios.

                  It doesn't "have to be a school" but holding it to that makes the comparison logically even more clear and irrefutable. I am trying to support an argument that is less refutable by others who would deny it.

                  The premise is that it is about race. From the data we have you cannot logically conclude that is it...too many variables. Holding as many variables as possilbe Un-varying (ie the same) can tease out what is really true.

                  Also, I sense that this one hit home more because it was a large number...of very young Kids....at a school where parents send their kids every am and is assumed to be safe.

                  I think those three things...beyond or in addition to race...are reasons why the reaction to this shooting was different than other mass shootings (even those of mostly Whites).

                  it' s just an intellectual argument (if as I say God Forbid a school of Black kids got shot up and many were killed) but I am doing it to be able to support the premise of the diary.

                  •  I don't strictly agree that the premise (0+ / 0-)

                    is about race, per se.  Instead, I believe the premise is based on the distinction between the dominant socio-cultural paradigm of white privilege that demonstrably obscures the most acute type of gun violence in our country that occurs in disadvantaged communities.

                    Scale does matter, whether in a single incident or in aggregate, but as a matter of scale there is no question that handgun violence by urban, young, male, minority, under-educated and economically disadvantaged populations is a more profound problem than rampage killings, as horrific and tragic as they may be.

                    I also respectfully disagree that exclusion of identified correlating variables somehow obscures a comparison between different types of gun violence, whether rampage killings, suicides, domestic violence or the complex multi-variable urban crimes, injuries and homicides.

                    The progressive agenda should focus on all of these variables -- universal health care, including mental health, economic and educational opportunity and other social support systems that will narrow the divide between the privileged and the disadvantaged.

                    Thanks for the discussion.

                    The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

                    by ancblu on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:46:16 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I see you judge me before you tke time (0+ / 0-)

              to understand where I am coming from so just ignore my explanations below...I see they won't land on you anyway

          •  no (0+ / 0-)

            I mean twenty kids mostly six or seven shot up by a crazy guy in their school
            that is all

      •  if they were black it would've gotten (10+ / 0-)

        the same attention.

      •  The ratio argument is bogus. (4+ / 0-)

        Three people killed is three people killed - it is of exactly the same significance, regardless of their background.

        By the reasoning behind this "ratio" argument, one black person being killed should get more attention than four white people.  Meanwhile, one Jewish person being killed should get more attention than two black people.

        But of course, that makes no sense.

        Art is the handmaid of human good.

        by joe from Lowell on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 07:53:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  See my comment up-thread (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ontheleftcoast, mwm341, ancblu

          I think his reasoning in applying rates is a bit confused, but I think the point he's trying to make is valid and I demonstrate the problem he's suggesting in terms of relative populations.

          And I agree with you both, and others:

          - 3 people killed is 3 tragedies whomever they are

          - scale is important because "Big" numbers get more attention

          - demographic rates are important because they correlate to underlying causes and also define the degree to which we find a problem "tolerable", and I do think the diarist is correct in stating American society tolerates the higher rate of black deaths to a degree that would not be tolerated if they were white

          And given the reasoning of the first point, the situation in the third point should cause outrage, but it doesn't.

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Wed Dec 26, 2012 at 08:54:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  This is helpful in understanding (0+ / 0-)

            your point upthread.  Thanks.

            The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety. H.L. Mencken

            by ancblu on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 04:17:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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