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View Diary: Why Do Fundy Christians Love the Rich and Hate the Poor? (324 comments)

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  •  But the Protestants believe there is only (1+ / 0-)
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    Killer of Sacred Cows

    salvation through faith, not works.

    I never liked you and I always will.

    by Ray Blake on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:04:54 PM PST

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    •  Not exactly (2+ / 0-)

      There is a debate about faith vs. works in the New Testament, and every Protestant church I attended covered the issue heavily.  The conclusion was always that both are important.

      Nothing is as evilly imaginative as the mind of a teenage gamer. -- Sychotic1

      by Sarea on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 06:50:12 PM PST

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      •  Paul writes in Galatians 2:16 (2+ / 0-)
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        Sarea, Only Needs a Beat
        "Yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in/of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in/of Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law."
        I realize that there's some disagreement about that, based I guess, on a statement by James, but "faith, not works" seems to be a mantra among Christians I know.

        I never liked you and I always will.

        by Ray Blake on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:25:00 PM PST

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        •  I'm sure that is your experience but its not mine (0+ / 0-)

          I was raised a pastors kid and attended different Protestant churches and congregations (some non denominational) all my life until a few years ago.  Maybe you know lots of people from one specific tradition?

          Nothing is as evilly imaginative as the mind of a teenage gamer. -- Sychotic1

          by Sarea on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:32:56 PM PST

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          •  Yeah, they tend to be Foursquare evangelicals (1+ / 0-)
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            Sarea

            though they do perform works, regardless of their belief that salvation is through faith alone. What's the work around for Galatians 2:16, btw? Paul seems to have been pretty clear on this.

            I never liked you and I always will.

            by Ray Blake on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:42:45 PM PST

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            •  Conflicting opinions in the NT, (0+ / 0-)

              Just like the "workarounds" for everything else in the Bible.  Galatians verse you cute says you need faith to be justified, and there are multiple interpretations of what it means to be justified, exactly (otherwise why not use the word salvation, if salvation is what you mean).

              Some people don't believe that Paul was the ultimate authority, especially since he's likely not the author of some of the works attributed to him.  

              Also as you mentioned, "faith without works is dead."

              Nothing is as evilly imaginative as the mind of a teenage gamer. -- Sychotic1

              by Sarea on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 07:58:32 PM PST

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              •  There's always the matter of translation as well (1+ / 0-)
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                ZedMont

                What's the Greek for salvation and justification? Is there a distinction? Aren't Christians saved when they accept Jesus as their savior? James gives the example that faith is dead if you don't help the destitute. Paul is talking about the law, but this seems to be another example of the Paul/Peter split. Paul wants to save the gentiles and doesn't want the law to be a barrier. James is old school Jerusalem, like Peter. And I suspect, more like Jesus.

                I never liked you and I always will.

                by Ray Blake on Thu Dec 27, 2012 at 08:59:01 PM PST

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                •  The book of James was possibly written by (0+ / 0-)

                  James, the brother of Jesus.  This is not a certainty, but James was the leader of the Jerusalem church after the death of his brother, and the book of James teaches a Christianity that is based on Judaism, as was Jesus' teachings.  James' salvation by good works reflects what Jesus taught.  Paul's salvation by faith alone does not.  

                  Paul had very little to say about Jesus.  He never met Jesus in life.  His only (alleged) contact with Jesus was in a vision.  Only Paul knows for sure whether or not he had that vision, and God only knows if it was the result of a divine revelation or a psychological or physical trauma to the brain of Paul.

                  Visions are very convenient devices for one who claims a "revelation," especially when the revelation contradicts real life.

                  In real life Jews (and Jewish Christians) were bound by the dietary laws of Moses.  But Peter had what?  A vision.  The vision authorized Christians to eat what theretofore had been prohibited.  Peter was the only witness to this vision, and although it contradicted everything that Jewish Christians had been taught in real life, it was accepted by gentile Christians as authoritative, and the beliefs of Jewish Christians were slowly marginalized to the point of demonization of the Jews by gentile Christians.

                  The gospels would be much more persuasive to me had they been written somewhat contemporaneously with Jesus - or Paul, for that matter, by Jewish Christians who worshipped much like Jesus, rather than decades later - the gospel of John 90 years later - by Greek-speaking gentile Christians.  

                  That's a lot of time to decide whether to document only words spoken by Jesus as passed down by oral tradition in his own community, or whether to supplement them to reflect faith as it existed at the time and in the communities in which the gospels were written.

                  And who the hell is Grover Norquist???

                  by ZedMont on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 11:06:45 AM PST

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