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View Diary: Why Lisa Jackson is leaving the EPA: the Keystone XL pipeline. (230 comments)

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  •  How many here (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Odysseus, 6412093

    are willing to give up their cars completely?

    And don't say that all-electric vehicles are the solution: Most electricity in the US is still produced from burning fossil fuels.

    •  That's a specious argument (8+ / 0-)

      If we had better public transit, especially high speed rail between cities and light rail for commuters, people would use it.

      Most of us don't really have the option to give up our cars.

      “Better the occasional faults of a government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a government frozen in the ice of its own indifference.” -- FDR, 1936

      by SolarMom on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 07:47:40 AM PST

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      •  furthermore, EVs ARE better than gas cars (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        SolarMom, RLMiller, dewley notid

        Unlike gas burners, EVs are instantly fully "upgradable" to renewable energy sources as soon as they become available. The argument that electric cars are "dirty" and beneath consideration because you might have to charge one somewhere with coal electricity is bogus RW propaganda.

        "I don't cry over milk spilled under bridges. I go make lemonade" - Bucky Katt

        by quill on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 09:27:50 AM PST

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        •  Not bogus (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          6412093

          even with the success of the Obama administration's war on coal, it still is responsible for over a third of electric power production. And that literally kills people -- both coal miners, and those of us who have to breathe the stuff.

          If Andrew Cuomo manages both to kill hydrofracking and close the Indian Point nuclear plant, he will be responsible both for the deaths of people from breathing coal exhaust, and for increasing global warming.

        •  And I resent the insinuation that (1+ / 0-)
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          Bronx59

          I promote RW propaganda. I am, however, a big campaigner against the use of coal and diesel fuel; one reason is that I live in a city that uses far too much of both.

          •  I still say it's a bogus argument (3+ / 0-)
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            charliehall2, RLMiller, dewley notid

            Sorry, didn't mean to impugn your motives, but it is myopic to dismiss a green technology based on an electricity market that is regionally variable and is in most places likely to evolve and become greener in the coming years. I usually hear or read this argument made by contrarian anti-green libertarian types and Fox news talking heads (the same ones who deny global warming), which is why I call it RW propaganda.

            What bothers me is that I think that EVs are one of the only "lifestyle acceptable" and significant first steps that consumers can make away from hydrocarbon dependence for transportation.

            "I don't cry over milk spilled under bridges. I go make lemonade" - Bucky Katt

            by quill on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 12:08:58 PM PST

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            •  The electricity market is getting greener (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              quill, sebastianguy99

              precisely because of the low cost and plentiful supply of natural gas, largely as the result of the hydrofracking that so many her on DKos object to.

              Hybrid vehicles do offer significant improvements in fuel consumption and therefore are a significant environmental improvement. But plug-ins while recharging rely on whatever the electric network has, and to a far too great extent that is coal.

              Meanwhile we still have all these horrible diesel trucks that are FAR worse polluters than any passenger car, causing children to have asthma exacerbations even as I speak. The Cross Bronx Expressway was reported to be a parking lot today, mostly with idling diesel trucks. Sigh (though my gas mask).

              This is a complex issue and I'm certainly not opposed to more renewable energy! But to a great extent there are really two energy sectors: Electricity, and Everything Else, with little crossover of applications. Wind farms just aren't going to be heating many homes and we are a very long way from having the use of electric cars become widespread. In the mean time, I hate to say this, but hydrofracking and burning natural gas is overall better for the environment than mining and burning coal.

            •  I'll use me as an example. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              quill

              I can't afford a new car, but in the next year I'll get either a Volt or other electric.  I drive under 15 miles a day, total, most days.  I also live in a place where I have some retail choice to contract for pure renewable power.   Thus, for my particular location, I can in fact drive carbon free, or nearly so (except for the longer trips)

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:54:48 PM PST

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          •  Well, you could be like me (0+ / 0-)

            and contract for renewables.

            It is a pretty weak argument, simply because switching to electric is instantly carbon neutral as soon as you install your solar panel.  So, essentially with EVs there's one extra step involving known tech that means the "giving up cars" scenario is pure bunk.  

            It should read:  "you'll have to give up your car if you don't avail yourself of readily available technology"  This is a bit like decrying the deline in the horse population as requiring everyone to walk, while ignoring the existence of automobiles.

            Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

            by Mindful Nature on Fri Dec 28, 2012 at 04:50:13 PM PST

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      •  That is a specious argument (2+ / 0-)
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        6412093, Bronx59

        as the only city in the US with sufficient population density so that most commuters use public transit is NYC -- and even here, public transit is really only good for getting people in and out of Manhattan. Commute from, say, Bronx to Queens, and you have to drive. And there is no way to fix that problem in a way that is affordable; subway construction around here costs about $2 billion a mile.

    •  most still is from fossil fuels (0+ / 0-)

      but that doesn't need to continue.

      We should be putting solar panels, oh, about everywhere. Shouldn't be allowed to build a house in the Sun Belt without them, at the barest of minimums.

      Solar gets criticized since 'you can only get it when the sun is shining'. Of course, my peak electric use, and I'm hardly an outlier, is during the summer, when it is the hottest.

      You know, afternoon in July.

      This peak offset would go a long way in reducing fossil fuel burn, as those tend to be the energy production techniques which are used at peak times, as they can more rapidly and cheaply be activated.

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