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View Diary: They planned to kill us "if deemed necessary." (290 comments)

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  •  Lack of hierarchy was cumbersome (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Rizzo, AoT, Agathena

    due to inexperience of the participants.

    Entire cities have, for limited lengths of time, self-managed without hierarchy, using direct democracy, and have managed quite well. In Spain, in the anarchist uprising during the civil war, regions were anarchistically self managed for several years.

    Lack of hierarchy doesn't mean there aren't spokespersons or delegates, per se, it means delegates are re-callable and mandated by the groups they speak for.

    Thus, spokes-councils can be formed in which the spokespersons meet, and these "delegates" must answer to those smaller groups who delegated them, rather than act independently as "leaders."

    I think Occupy tried to use the consensus process in groups that were too large for that to work, but there are other ways to organize without resorting to the conventional hierarchical model.

    And yes, I have been part of Occupy. Not in New York, but Portland Oregon did have the largest Occupy camp in the U.S. for awhile there.

    Portland finally began to use the spokes-council model, which seemed to work better for a large group. It is still horizontal, still non-hierarchical, and still direct democracy, rather than representative democracy. Working groups and affinity groups can often do the bulk of the day to day work completely non-hierarchically.

    If Occupy turns to the hierarchical model, which is basically representative democracy with elites at the top who govern the rest, it will no longer be a true people's movement. It will just become another Moveon type org.

    And if it becomes a wing of a party, such as Democrats, which realistically is completely elitist, centrally governed and non-democratic in organization...

    Thanks, but no thanks.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 03:04:02 PM PST

    •  no becoming a wing of a party (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ZhenRen, Agathena

      but giving birth to a new party, that then acts as its own entity--that would be OK. Don't think we were ready for that though, in 2011.

      if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 30, 2012 at 06:04:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Spain not a model at all (0+ / 0-)
      In Spain, in the anarchist uprising during the civil war, regions were anarchistically self managed for several years.
      And that 'self-management' allowed massive human rights violations including extrajuridicial murders of tens of thousands. The Nationalists were worse, but the Republican side might have been equally bloody had it won.
      •  Solid, irrefutable evidence, please (0+ / 0-)

        I'm aware that history is written by elites, and my information tells me the distortions about the Spanish Civil War about the anarchists are numerous, and have been especially distorted by the Communist histories.

        When historians haven't ignored the anarchist achievements in that period of history in Spain, they have tended to misrepresent what occurred.

        It's not at all surprising, considering that all sides had reason to find the anarchists a threat, whether capitalists, communists, fascists, etc.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 12:23:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Republican side (0+ / 0-)

        consisted of various sub groups or factions. Not all can be held equally accountable.

        But anyway, I was referring to the anarchist controlled regions, and the period of anarchist social organization in those regions, in which anarchist principles were put into practice, which by the accounts I've read were successful.

        Of course, there will be groups that don't consider anything done by anarchists defined as successful.

        Here's a link for anyone interested in the anarchist view of this:

        http://anarchism.pageabode.com/...

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 12:58:28 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The anarchists who controlled Barcelona (0+ / 0-)

          burned numerous churches and murdered numerous clergy, including the bishop. And it looked awfully systematic for people who claimed to be anarchists! Sorry, but there was no excuse for that.

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