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  •  Former Governor HOWARD Dean (41+ / 0-)

    not JOHN Dean actually has a great point.

    Go over the cliff.  We'll get the biggest cut in military spending we could possibly imagine, taxes will go up on wealthy people and their children who will inherit their estates.  The problem with the cliff is that it pays the debt down too quickly and can throw us in a recession, but even that isn't a big deal a the effect will be spread out over a long period of time.  The meager tax increases for the middle class amount to less than $20 a week to $40 a week.  It's really not that much for a family making $50,000 to slash $40 out of their budget every week.  That's a night out at Pizza Hut.  It hurts and will surely hurt the economy a bit in the short term but as far as long term growth it will actually be better in so many ways.  

    There is so much wrong with tax cuts and the last 12 years have proven that they don't work.  Supply side economics has failed.  It's high time we try something else, something that has been proven to work.  For starters extending the Unemployment benefits.  Investing in our infrastructure and technology.  Higher taxes means we will have the extra revenue to do it and not bust our budgets like we did under Bush/Bush/Reagan.  

    The fiscal cliff and the majority of the pain associated with it is aimed at the rich.  Let them fucking suffer a bit.  Let the Cap Gains rate go up to 23.8%.  It's STILL lower than their secretaries.   Let dividend rates go up to 43.4%.  It's high time the Waltons get off their asses and actually earn their money.  The Unemployment extension and the cuts to social programs are the only real things that are worth fighting for and that fight can be more effectively waged AFTER we go over.  

    Also politically, going over benefits the Dems and Obama long term.  The deficit will be slashed effectively neutering the BS talking point about Dems and deficits, the GOoPers will be seen as the cause of the recession and the extremist rich loving fuckwads they are and in 2 years the Dems can regain the House.  Medicare and Social Security will be saved from Pete Peterson and the asshole CEO's who think it's ok to slash your Social Security but NOT ok to raise their taxes.  

    The reality is most people in the middle class ALREADY ARE IN A RECESSION.  The only ones who aren't are the wealthy who can still afford to buy two Maserati's or $10,000,000 estates on a beach.  Raising their taxes won't affect their spending habits because they have so much extra already that they don't spend.  So if we do enter into another 'recession' it won't be any different than the one most of us are already in.  

    This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

    by DisNoir36 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 05:20:52 AM PST

    •  concur 100% (17+ / 0-)

      Dean and Robert Reich (as well as others) have been saying for weeks that going over the cliff was the best deal for the country, Dean in particular saying that it is the only way the country gets the significant defense cuts it needs.

      the GOP had 18 months to avoid this and they were more afraid of Grover Norquist then they were in potentially wrecking the economy. They already proven they had no issue letting the country go in to default and then turn around and scream for cutting back government as it is too dysfunctional, in fact, cutting the size so it can be drowned in a bathtub as Grover wants.

      This is all about lining the pockets of the wealthy and that being the case, I am in the canoe with Dean and Reich and history will show, so was O all along and he played the GOP like a drum.

      mittens=edsel. no matter how much money is spent to promote it, if the product sucks, no one will buy it.

      by wewantthetruth on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 05:36:58 AM PST

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    •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Nulwee, 4Freedom, AaronInSanDiego

      I fixed the John/Howard problem. Reich is also wrong.

      Practice tolerance, kindness and charity.

      by LWelsch on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 05:53:59 AM PST

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    •  That's pure fantasy . . . (3+ / 0-)
      Go over the cliff.  We'll get the biggest cut in military spending we could possibly imagine,
      There won't be any cuts in military spending, that much is certain.

      Instead, even more will come out of other, non-security apparatus arms of the government.

      •  Not without them passing some legislation it (5+ / 0-)

        won't. The default condition, which will occur when the cliff two-story drop curb hits in a day or so dings the military budget. Now, I do agree with you it's likely they'll rush to the aid of their precious MIC. But as it stands the MIC stands to lose. What amazes me is the Republicans were SO confident they'd defeat Obama in 2012 they were willing to gamble the military budget on it. They agreed to the terms of the bargain that got us here and are so stubborn they refuse to deal with the consequences of the election. No, 'amazed' isn't really the right word/phrase -- 'sickens' is probably more accurate.

        What's wrong with America? I'll tell you. Everything Romney said was pre-chewed wads of cud from Republicans from the last 30 years and yet he managed thru a combination of racism and selling the (false) hope of riches to get 47% of the national vote.

        by ontheleftcoast on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:16:55 AM PST

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      •  There may be, and in fact (0+ / 0-)

        there have already been some, by my read (defense budget was lower in 2012 than 2011, and lower for 2013 than 2012). But the main problem is that all the cuts, military and otherwise, will cause a significant amount of unemployment, and if the total package goes through, what will offset that? This may cut the deficit, but at what cost? Yes, the defense budget needs to be cut. One way to help solve that is to remove conflicts of interest from the decision process, in part by breaking up defense contractors (which is already happening to the company I work for and others, in addition to layoffs), and through real political leadership.

        "I have more than two prablems" - The Coach Z

        by AaronInSanDiego on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 01:30:51 PM PST

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    •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)

      As a recovering Deaniac, I find his representation of the democratic wing of the democratic party refreshing.  No bipartisan bullshit is ever spewed forth by Dean, he is the hardcore dem we will always need.

      "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

      by Subterranean on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:37:54 AM PST

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    •  that kind of sentiment is disgusting (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      peregrine kate

      and delusional.

      but i guess when it is howard dean, self-described "deficit hawk," and known before 2004 primaries as a centrist, but now very wrongly thought of as a "progressive," promoting horrible austerity, lots of people here embrace it, even though it is catastrophically stupid policy, and cruel.

      rich people will not feel any pain at all in paying more in taxes (for the same reason it will not affect their spending habits), whereas a family losing the extra EITC, child credit, payroll tax cut, plus having to pay higher income taxes, AND lose some government services (which have already been cut a lot by state governments) will be very painful and will ruin the economy.

      that would also drive the economy into recession, as it has done in many european countries, which would only exacerbate the recession you say middle class are still experiencing.

      people struggling through a recession with shitty low wage jobs can't afford to lose another $1500 per year.  and even if they could, there is absolutely no reason to take that money.  that money will not be spent on anything by the government, and it would not eliminate the deficit (especially since it would create another  recession).

      deficit is not the problem.  poverty and UE are the main problems.

      ....

      in addition to the negative effects on millions of poor and middle class people, the fiscal cliff's austerity is also totally moronic politically.

      if the economy is in recession again, D's will be blamed for it far more than R's (partly b/c obama is president, and partly b/c R's would obviously campaign for lower taxes, as they always do).

      R's would gain seats in congress, and possibly gain control of the senate (2014 map is advantageous for R's).

    •  Going over the cliff won't help Democrats! (0+ / 0-)

      If anything, it will probably result in a major third party, probably a revival of the Progressive Party, gain a significant foothold in American politics. I think you'll see a lot of the "Backbone Democrats", such as Elizabeth Warren, Tammy Baldwin, and others join that kind of third party, with the establishment Republicans, establishment Democrats, DLCers, and Blue Dogs becoming the new Democratic Party, leaving the Republican Party with only the extreme right-wingers.

      I'm sensing that the two-party system in this country is actually beginning to unravel.

      Elizabeth Warren on the Senate Banking Committee is a BFD!

      by DownstateDemocrat on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:51:51 AM PST

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