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  •  plus the state and local taxes in a place (8+ / 0-)

    like NYC is high, as is the cost of living. Add in a couple of kids, and there goes your pre-tax $250k. Nobody was saying that families at that income level are poor; they said they are "not rich".  Which is a relative term.

    •  yeah, state tax is high in several states (7+ / 0-)

      California really cuts into income. You also pay sales tax. I think they are both over 7%.

      Do you know if the definition of "net income" for purposes of ending Bush tax cuts means post state tax?

      Like I said, I agree that folks should pay more, but it seems that pundits and news talking heads fail to understand what "more" means, i.e., that the first $250K isn't taxed any differently.

      But understanding that different parts of the country pay much more to live is worth noting. Where I live now, $250k after taxes is a good living. Where I used to live, it didn't go any where near as far.

      BagNewsNotes: Visual Politics, Media Image Analysis

      by ksh01 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 05:40:02 AM PST

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    •  the fact that "middle class" has no definition (19+ / 0-)

      is a major contributor to this little bit of deceit.
      The word "middle" does in fact have a solid definition, and it does not include outliers like "over $200k" or "under $15k". No sane definition of "middle" includes the ten percent or so at the margins.
      When the median income is under $50k, and less than 10% of the population brings in enough money to evade the current cap on SocSec, anyone over that cap limit is not "middle class".
      Let me repeat; if part of your annual income is exempt from social security payments, you are wealthy. You might not be fabulously, scandalously, or obscenely wealthy, but you are wealthy. I don't care if you don't 'feel' wealthy. This is mathematics, specifically percentages. If you are in this group, or "class" as it is properly called, and you have no savings, then you have  a spending problem (sound familiar?), not a revenue problem.
      I have experienced profoundly different economic situations in my adult life; when Mrs kamarvt became a CT tech after waiting tables for years, and I was promoted to management at my job, our income went from far below the median to a bit above it. We initially did what most people do; increased our spending to match our income. So we had no more extra money than we did before. After the first thrill of it was over, we didn't feel any richer than we had before, but the facts told a different story, and we decided to listen.  Recently we have made significant efforts to rein in our spending, reduce our carbon footprint, and grow a lot of our food. Those are choices we can make because we can afford the initial investments involved, like a greenhouse, wood pellet heat, and a hybrid car.

      The bullshit courtier etiquette that refuses to mention words like "poor" or "rich" except in cases of putting those naughty, naughty words in other people's mouths is a huge part of this.

      Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything - Malcolm X via Skindred

      by kamarvt on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:07:54 AM PST

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      •  What makes you think that a family (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        of four living in Manhattan that makes 250K pre-tax is in the top 10% of similarly-situated Manhattanites?

        •  I didn't claim it was, bink did (9+ / 0-)

          here. So apparently $250k net IS top tier, even in Manhattan. I was referencing the country as a whole, and using one of the most expensive places to live on the planet as a counterexample is a red herring. As many others have noted, Queens is far less expensive, yet close enough for millions of people to deal with the commute. I could have chosen the resort town up the road when house hunting, but getting half the house for three times the price seemed a bad bit of microeconomics. I got a solidly built home for $68k, and have paid off my mortgage early. Likewise, I could have chosen to have a family of four, but I have always felt there are plenty of people around already, and have no urge to propagate my particular genetic profile. My priorities might not be the same as yours or anyone else's, but I do know that money vs time is a constant balancing act, and nobody gets unlimited time on this earth.

          Stand for something, or you'll fall for anything - Malcolm X via Skindred

          by kamarvt on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 07:49:57 AM PST

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          •  Commuting into NYC is not cheap (1+ / 0-)
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            I live on Long Island in a lower middle class area and between my husband commuting to Brooklyn and my daughter going to a state and city subsidized college in NYC, we pay over $550 a month just for commutation.  So don't underestimate the high cost of commuting outside of Manhattan.

            Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote.

            by Renie57 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:56:59 AM PST

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        •  No top 10%, but at least top 16% (2+ / 0-)
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          tardis10, schnecke21

          Note that this data is from 2009 and only goes to above $200,000.  Obviously if you make $250,000 you're in that top 16%, and possibly top 10%.

          Also note, this is only for Manhattan.  If you include the entire city, you're definitely in the top 10%.

      •  Middle income and middle class are two different (1+ / 0-)
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        concepts.  Middle class is an abstraction.  Middle income can be measured once you define the parameters.  Typically all who have any sort of income, earned, unearned, whatever are grouped together and partitioned into 5 parts.  So then you have lower, lower middle, middle, upper middle, and upper.  That middle number isn't going to be anywhere close to 250K

      •  Yes. "Middle class" is not a completely elastic (0+ / 0-)

        category, and those in the top quintile (and the bottom one) are definitely not middle class.

        Some DKos series & groups worth your while: Black Kos, Native American Netroots, KosAbility, Monday Night Cancer Club. If you'd like to join the Motor City Kossacks, send me a Kosmail.

        by peregrine kate on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 09:42:29 AM PST

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    •  Oh bs. (3+ / 0-)
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      mamamedusa, peregrine kate, ferg

      People at that level, even $100,000 per year, are making more than 95% of the country.

      What the hell are you people griping about?????

      It's pathetic that kos is populated by apologists for the rich people, yeah, they're rich, and quit denying it.

      The banks have a stranglehold on the political process. Mike Whitney

      by dfarrah on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:56:33 AM PST

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