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View Diary: A King and a crown of gold (545 comments)

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  •  but the example does not deter crime (26+ / 0-)

    and only increases anger against the system.


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    by Denise Oliver Velez on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:16:54 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  If he orders murders from prison, as he has in (9+ / 0-)

      the past, then it would stand to reason that solitary will prevent him from ordering more.

    •  The objective is to instill fear, not deter crime. (8+ / 0-)

      Fear in the masses. Christians vs. lions was entertainment for the masses.

      The objective is to maintain Roman order not to eliminate crime.

      In this case, this gang leader could have been continuing to act as a crime boss from prison, but this punishment goes beyond stopping those activities. This is like water torture that goes on for years.

      American order is achieved by drone strikes, CIA led coups and the largest prison system in the world.

      We're the modern day Rome.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:48:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  RE: Christians vs Lions, one of our fave myths (4+ / 0-)

        Nero and Diocletian were the bloodiest against the nascent Christians, seeing them as advocating the downfall of the Empire but Gibbons estimated 4K died in those purges and the most any historian has posited is, I think, maybe 20K.  At least that many if not 2x or more died in the Coliseum sands after Constantine and in the 200 years or so the Christian emperors continued the Games.

        Just goes to show how much popular myth infiltrates our common discourse and affects it.  In the same manner, there are many myths surrounding the correlation between the severity of punishment and its efficacy  

        •  Except it wasn't just Christians (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Denise Oliver Velez

          The Romans also used convicted criminals and captured prisoners of war in their gruesome arena games. They didn't care who got torn to bits and eaten by wild beasts, as long as someone did (who wasn't "one of Us").

          There really was quite the dark underside to the Roman imperium, and we ignore that at our peril.

          If it's
          Not your body,
          Then it's
          Not your choice
          And it's
          None of your damn business!

          by TheOtherMaven on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:33:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  also a few Senators and other public officials (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Denise Oliver Velez

            but you did say criminals didn't you? (Snark)
              Commodus was the only emperor to fight in the arena (though Nero competed at the Olympics)  The interesting aspect of the history is that this continued after the Empire's conversion to Christianity and its suppression of other religions, which we never hear about

    •  Difficult questions (8+ / 0-)

      Boy, Deo, you have some difficult questions for us this morning.  I think this is one of your better diaries, but I am always impressed with your work.

      I don't think Fish meant to make a favorable comparison when he invoked the image of Rome, only to point out that both empires do it.  I could be wrong.

      There's a real difficulty that members of a criminal enterprise still pose a threat to the public, the guards and the other prisoners.  It seems here there's evidence of orders of murders from prison, which pretty much ends the case as to whether there can be any further contact.  I don't see any other way around it.  (I am also guessing that there was not evidence that John Gotti was similarly active.  I do note that Al Capone was in solitary confinement for something like 45 years. )  I'm not sure I see another solution to this problem.  The persistent danger to other prisoners from gangs inside prison may suggest more use of solitary rather than less.

      I do agree though, there's got to be a better way.

      On RICO, the statute needs to be revised, because its sweep is far too wide.  However, it seems that rather than not using against gangs, who disproportionately victimize minority areas, the better response would be to use it against the KKK and OPeration Rescue also.  However, the level of knowledge required to  be considered part of the organization is ridiculously low.  One doesn't need to have any knowledge of the organization or activities to be swept in I believe, so if you bring your housemate's bags in from the car, you cna be swept up.  I know of a case where the losing company in a large civil lawsuit is asserting that one witness presented false evidence, so they are using RICO's civil provisions to target ALL the lawyers and paralegals involved in the case on a fraud theory.  THat's just nuts.

      Finally, for me, the money quote was

      There will be no solution to guns on the streets unless we address the underlying causes of street gang formation, which include racism, ethnocentrism and classism.
      With that I'm off to write a brief in a lawsuit to get more and better directed education funding from the state, in part on an argument that better programs and interventions improve graduation rates and reduce suspensions, which in turn reduce crime rates.  If memory serves (it's still before the first coffee here in California), there's one study that reducing class sizes from 22 to 13 from K through 3rd grade can eliminate the performance gap between low and high income students at graduation nine years later.  Preschools can improve graduation rates massively.  And a 10% reduction in drop out rates can reduce homicides and assaults by 20% locally.  I'll keep this diary in mind while I'm writing to remember why I"m writing.


      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 09:15:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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