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View Diary: I Need a Permit to Own Bottle Rockets in Pennsylvania, but Not for a Military-Grade Assault Rifle (94 comments)

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  •  How many more children and young adults are we (9+ / 0-)

    willing to sacrifice for this "right" that the NRA, the bought politicians, and the stacked courts have created from what is, at best, a confusing statement regarding militias?  How many more 35k plus annual gun deaths will we put up with (including thousands of children every single year) before we stand up and make something happen that will bring common sense national regulations like licensing, training, and registration?

    Sadly, too many.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:06:11 PM PST

    •  I'm not "willing" . (4+ / 0-)

      "Drop the name-calling." Meteor Blades 2/4/11

      by indycam on Mon Dec 31, 2012 at 08:30:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  yesterday you had gun deaths at 30 thousand... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annecros

      today it has magically gone up to 35 thousand. I suppose you think the murder rate is still rising? I don't think that you will ever contribute to the conversation without at least attempting some form of accuracy.

      •  The NRA stopped accurate stat collection by gov... (6+ / 0-)

        and "Gun deaths" can include or exclude some categories (Suicide, accidents or count or exclude some that are indeterminate) and different non-govt. groups and individuals come up with different estimates... So cutting funding for our government from doing oversight and record keeping on just gun related deaths now allows "all guns forever" fans to pooh pooh reasonable statistics from other sources... very convenient.

        And as to conflicting totals... does the difference between 30k and 35k means that if it is "only" 30k there is no problem maybe?... or that if the numbers are not virtually 100% accurate by whoever's seal of approval and is required to count every single gun death to a degree far beyond usually accepted reliable stats for other medical causes of death by accident or intent... then we can discount them entirely... A very NRA way to tackle the issue.

        Confusing, blocking, blinding, distraction and denial work very well for a special interest group to get their way. The same sorts of things used successfully for years by the Tobacco lobby and more recently by the Climate change deniers. The current NRA board and leadership is a bird of that sort of feather.

        Pogo & Murphy's Law, every time. Also "Trust but verify" - St. Ronnie (hah...)

        by IreGyre on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 03:27:54 AM PST

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        •  Yup, they sure block the data and then they (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          IreGyre, Sharon Wraight

          attack the available data as inaccurate because it does not have good statistical research, which they continue to block to make sure that as little research is conducted as possible.

          If you look at Wiki Answers:

          In 2011, the latest figure available from the Centers for Disease Control,

          ...

          Total: At least 31940 people died from gun injuries in 2011.

          ...

          Previous years:
          2010 31,328 people
          2009 31,177 people
          2007 31,224 people
          2004 29,569 people

          So even with the incomplete data available it is clear that the trend is up and by all accounts 2012 was much worse and by anybody's projections (e.g. Bloomberg) gun deaths are passing automobile deaths.

          In any case, all these numbers don't even include all the injuries by guns that don't result in deaths - according to Bloomberg article, over 200 people go to the ER every day with gun injuries (i.e. over 70,000 per year!)

          Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 06:24:42 AM PST

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          •  The FBI has the number of gun related murders (0+ / 0-)

            at a little over 8500 for 2011 with a DOWNWARD trend since at least 2006. I would think that they would know or at least have accurate crime stats.

            I don't know if reducing the number of guns would reduce the number of suicides. If I were planning to go a gun would not be my first choice but, plenty take that route (about 15k) and I DO count these poor unfortunates as gun related deaths.

            Do you have reliable accident data because I have not looked?

            •  Let's get our facts straight (0+ / 0-)

              The # of deaths by a firearm in 2011 was 31,347.

              http://www.cdc.gov/...

              The rate you are talking about is something else entirely.  You're referring to stats as drawn by the FBI Crime rate, which is not related necessarily to the death rate.

              Why is that important?   Because since they determine by the charged crime, a few other factors trigger in:

              * Suicides are not included
              * Non-charged deaths are not included (this includes accidental or ex-post death)
              * Manslaughter offenses, or downcharges are not included
              * Non-charged crimes are not included.

              There is a significant difference between the # of deaths by and the # of charged crimes involving.  

              And while the charged/sought crime rate has diminished, it doesn't mean that the death rate follows right along.  

              Just so that we are not mixing apples and oranges, and so you can understand why the 2011 delta (suicides: 12,340 is the best stat I can find) + the FBI Charged or Convicted Murder rate do not add up to the total #.

              Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

              by Chris Reeves on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 05:13:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  as far as I have been able to find the suicide... (0+ / 0-)

                rate was more like 15k. I honestly do not know if any current gun legislation or any proposed would keep any of these people from killing themselves with guns since almost any kind of gun, long or short, would do...this would hardly be my prefered method.

                Regardless, yesterday this person said the rate of DEATH was 35 thousand and RISING and that is. even with generous estimates not true and the number of murders is still declining.

                •  Yes (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Massconfusion

                  The raw # is 31,347 for 2011, and it will be higher for 2012, closer to 33,500, though that # isn't finalized or even close yet.

                  I think what I'm trying to get at though is that even if you give the suicide # of 15,000, and the number of FBI chased crime at 8,500, that's still a serious difference.

                  The reason for that is because of how they are charged (gun deaths that are ruled manslaughters, take part in a multiple, non-charged, accidents, etc.)

                  So we're just mixing up multiple statistics.  That's all I'm getting at.

                  Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                  by Chris Reeves on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:00:31 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I support licensing, training, and registration. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      I think Canada and the Nordic nations offer great general outlines for sane fire arms policies.

      That said, 55% of the gun deaths in the US are suicides.  Gun laws won't save those lives.

      600 of them are accidents.  Training, and requiring weapons to be properly secured in the home, will make a big dent in those.

      12,600 are homicide deaths.  We can greatly reduce those by keeping guns out of the hands of people who simply shouldn't have them (not just background checks, but making them harder to steal).

      We can virtually eliminate several hundred of those deaths by treating high capacity magazines just like we treat sawed off shotguns.

      If the Federal Government can regulate barrel length without infringing on the 2nd (and the cases have been through the courts) it can certainly regulate magazine capacity.

      The 2nd isn't confusing.  Every reasonable person of good will understands that "well regulated", while it may not allow the Federal Government to simply ban all arms, certainly provides a great deal of lee-way for sensible...you know...regulation.

      "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

      by JesseCW on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 05:56:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong on suicides, suicides were dramatically (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        sk4p, Sharon Wraight, diomedes77

        reduced in Australia, for one, when they instituted gun regulations.  Most people committing suicides do it on an impulse and most of those that survive regret it and don't try it again - it is a call for help.

        Especially among young people (15-25) the "success" rate of these attempts would drop significantly, nobody knows by how much, but if it is by half that means almost 10k people a year that get another chance.  Just ask their families whether any of those lives saved are "worth it?"

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 06:38:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  That's actually not true. The claim has been (0+ / 0-)

          solidly debunked.

          This is a very pro-regulation site.  

          http://www.gunpolicy.org/...

          What you can plainly see is that suicide rates have followed general economic prosperity, diving in a boom economy and rising again as the economy declined.

          There was a huge spike several years after the newer strict regulations were passed.  I certainly wouldn't say the new regulations were to blame for that, but that also means that we can't jump to the conclusion that they brought about the temporary decline.

          Nothing here remotely suggests any decline by half, or close to it.  This is the best case study we've got.

          Here you can see the US suicide rate for some of the same years.  You'll see they're not only very close, but that they track similarly year by year.

          http://www.gunpolicy.org/...

          To solve problems, we need to look at what the data actually tell us.  

          Not make conjectures without basis.

          Some of the nations with the highest suicide rates in the world, btw, allow effectively no civilian access to firearms.

          "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

          by JesseCW on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 06:54:39 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Keep quoting NRA friendly data and the accuse me (0+ / 0-)

            of not wanting to open my eyes.

            Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

            by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:04:52 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Dude, are you familiar with Gun Policy.org? (0+ / 0-)

              You basically just called NARAL Anti-Choice.  You called Sea Shepherd a Pro-Whaling outfit.

              http://www.gunpolicy.org/...

              Gun regulation isn't going to stop the guy who decides to kill himself because he hasn't had a job in three years.

              It damn well can stop him from deciding to go to his old workplace and take a dozen people with him.

              "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

              by JesseCW on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:14:45 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  But it will stop a teenager that takes his/her (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                diomedes77

                father's gun and acts impulsively as teenagers do.  Is it worth saving any of them?

                Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

                by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:22:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, it won't. That teenager will grab a rope or (0+ / 0-)

                  a blade or find a bridge if they're serious.

                  They'll grab a bottle of tylenol if they want to make a cry for help and survive.

                  Statistically, getting rid of guns doesn't change suicide rates.  

                  "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                  by JesseCW on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:35:12 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Or a really large bag of marshmallows or a pillow (0+ / 0-)

                    and suffocate themselves, right?  All those you mention take a lot more effort and a lot more time, two things that teenagers' patience typically does not allow, but they sure would allow for re-thinking their impulse - even a few minutes may suffice to save some lives.

                    Continuing to spew the NRA talking point that suicides don't count as they could never be stopped is very irresponsible of you.

                    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

                    by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:46:25 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You know what the NRA does? They argue that (0+ / 0-)

                      it's better to base your beliefs on your opinions than on neutral facts.

                      Its followers argue that statistics don't matter, because they can think of all kinds of scenarios where a gun can protect them.  

                      There's more than one group dedicated to making it impossible to have reality based discussions on the topic.

                      "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

                      by JesseCW on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 07:56:25 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  People with serious intent (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DefendOurConstitution

                    To commit suicide will commit suicide.  

                    That said, suicide attempts with weapons that are not a gun are often seen as "cries for help" because their success rate is not nearly the success rate of that with a gun.  

                    Overdoses can be solved and people saved, slit wrists leave people time to get someone to a hospital.

                    A gunshot to the head, however, isn't fixable.

                    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                    by Chris Reeves on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 09:57:22 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

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