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View Diary: Stop telling me Obama's Pyrrhic victories are some high form of chess beyond my understanding (713 comments)

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  •  And stop telling me (16+ / 0-)

    that every compromise is a complete capitulation and the end of progressivism as we know it. You were never going to get 250k. Estate tax was always going to be the bargaining chip. You don't negotiate like this in whatever limited areas of your life require give and take and you definitely are inferring the unemployed falling off and turning this economy instantly into recession are good trade off for grandstanding a point.

    This is next to no spending cuts and almost all tax revenue. Remember when  10 and 1 was balked at on a national debate stage? When 3 to 1 is the Democratic best hope? What's this one at? Has anyone even done the math? And we get all the extensions and tax credits such as green energy that we want.

    Whatever game you are comfortable at it. This is a win. And not a Pyhrric victory. Just a regular victory. Not a great or epic victory. Just a plain clear cut victory. We can't always get what we want, but we definitely got what we needed and then some. Yet all you can do is angrily insist that we should have just stomped our feet with the starting position. That's not negotiation. That's not compromise. That's just pretending and being unrealistic.

    •  Thank you (8+ / 0-)

      Some people think it is more important to win at politics than to actually govern and make tough decisions that affect people's lives.

    •  redo your math in 2 months after the next hostage (10+ / 0-)

      crisis. It won't be so pretty now that we have given away virtually all of our leverage.

      Power to the Peaceful!

      by misterwade on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 12:49:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They have given away all of theirs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Aquarius40

        The debt ceiling was going to happen anyway. The sequester was set to happen anyway. If this bill passes, we got what we wanted by the ten. They then will be forced into accepting either even more taxes or a straight up raise after a long bitter losing fight.

        Yup. Did the math. It's even better when I look into the future.

        •  I don't understand (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Williston Barrett

          I think they hold all the card, excepting, to a limited extent, the military cuts. The sequester cuts hurt us most. The only part the right truly opposes is the military cuts. But dems don't really want those either (I do) because of so much pork involved.  So either we agree to cutting our most cherished programs, or automatic cuts kick in. Please explain how that puts our side in a good position.  

          Power to the Peaceful!

          by misterwade on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 12:59:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  We were in the same positon we were before on that (0+ / 0-)

            nothing has changed. Except for a delayed time frame. How is that any more leverage than what it was today, yesterday, or six months ago?

            •  the context of the tax rates is different (0+ / 0-)

              if they have already reverted to Clinton levels. And the thugs are more anxious to avoid the military cuts. Unfortunately dems like this pork too.  

              But the flip side: how could the thugs have more and better cards after the tax rates have reverted?  They pretty much have to agree to tax cuts for lower income folks or be seen as opposed to tax cuts. I don't see that happening, though they are surely capable of the hypocrisy and cognitive dissonance.  

              Power to the Peaceful!

              by misterwade on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 06:53:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The tax rates going up doesn't give them more (0+ / 0-)

                leverage. All this means is that now taxes aren't off the table. Like they've been for two decades. That dam has been broken. Remember 10 to 1 cuts/revenue was a no go? Well what the hell is this? 1 to 40?

                I already told you. They have the same cards now that they had to begin with. They had the debt ceiling before and they have it now. So because we won the expiry that's somehow not leverage now? Yeah. It's not leverage because it was attained. Now we make new demands. You're the world's worst negotiator if you don't see that.

    •  Tony Stark - Thank you!! (n/t) (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cassandracarolina, etherealfire
    •  Yes but... (0+ / 0-)

      Not due to Obama.  No cuts to social programs not because Obama is some liberal, but because the liberal base through House and Senate dems would not vote for his give aways...that is the victory here...i am hoping for more of this liberal Obama as he can no longer give away the core of the New Deal simply with gop votes.

    •  "You were never going to get X" (0+ / 0-)

      is all we've heard for the past 4 years.

      There's no earthly reason why I should support a politician who does nothing but tell me why I can't have what I need. There is no earthly reason why I should support a party which does nothing but tell me why I can't have what I need.

      It's a steady drumbeat with this guy. "Eat your peas." "There will be some bitter pills to swallow." Never any fight for what I want, for what many many of his supporters want. Instead ceaseless defenses made of the crappy ideologies and policies of the opposition, which end up putting a big bipartisan gold star on the policies of the Right and consecrates them as inevitable, while defining everyone who opposes them as stupid and naive.

      Winning some and losing some is something we all understand. But here the wins are all either temporary and short term, or a loss presented as a win, as if a quarterback told his team that losing 7 yards on a play was a win b/c they didn't lose 27.

      Did I say Obama was useless? I think he has a very real use: to hermetically seal the public sphere so that all liberal ideas and policies are permanently excluded from play, thus making right-wing ideas no longer a conservative option, but an inevitable political truth.

      if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 12:13:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then why are you here? (0+ / 0-)

        You're in the wrong place if you're all in for a political party that is nothing but strident uncompromising demagogues. You didn't need the 250 threshold, you wanted it. You didn't want the estate tax to go up more than it did, you wanted it. And you wanted it now now NOW.

        Eat your peas is right. You have yet to actually prove you lost anything. You don't actually make any rational argument for why 85% of what was originally set out even on the campaign trail getting attained is somehow a loss. You're not dealing in truth. You're dealing in a fantasy world where millions of people wouldn't have been tossed out on the street and everyone gotten a chunk out of their check during a tenuous recovery would have been great.

        I wanted compromise. I voted for compromise. This is a good compromise. If you want to live in the world of Jill Steins, fantastico. Not what this site is for.

    •  41:1 revenues to spending. Cons are freaking out (0+ / 0-)

      But if the Professional Left (TM) doesn't have anything to freak out about they'll just invent something.

      Obama is a corporate sellout Republican. This must be true or they have nothing to be outraged about. If Obama rolls the Republicans, they must understand the deal wrong. Obama always caves! Bill Clinton would have got HCR passed. Clinton wouldn't take so long to get rid of DADT. Clinton would be better on wall street. Etc Etc.

      Go over to Redstate and see how the Teabaggers are calling for the GOP to be destroyed over this, but w/e.

      When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

      by PhillyJeff on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 08:42:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I actually find it very encouraging (0+ / 0-)

        That roughly half of the reactions here are people who don't consider compromise a sellout or a dirty word,and actually are warm to the deal. Maybe not hot, but warm. Which is about the right reaction.

        I had actually been predicting a slightly worse deal on the capital gains and tax credits front, so I was actually a bit pleasantly surprised. All other aspects were in line with what I expected. We need to send Biden in more often. He could end up being the best VP evar.

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