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View Diary: We'll never be able to reason with Second Amendment absolutists until we understand them. With poll. (156 comments)

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  •  I agree with you, I am only trying to explain (7+ / 0-)

    to others as it took me a long time to realize it (I am dense) that there is no reasoning with them, just like with any of the other religious absolutists.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 04:10:59 PM PST

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    •  I think I DO understand them better after all this (7+ / 0-)

      discussion/hair pulling/aggravation (but note, they are not exactly alike and there ARE some darned enlightened gun owners here and I would suppose elsewhere). I have learned that I dislike the NRA more than I ever imagined. I have learned many gun owners SAY they don't like the NRA, but in reality actually agree with a lot of the NRA's more aggressive positions.

      I have learned their side has a very sophisticated legal strategy, and who knows how it will play out. They got "keep" out of Heller. Now they are working on "bear" (they hope to get shall issue permitting to be a nationwide thing and a lot of the litigation I am reading aims (pardon the pun) to achieve that).

      I have learned that, to many, the second amendment is as God-like as it gets.

      I have learned the second isn't absolute but we don't know, really, what regulations the court will ultimately allow.

      I have learned that the fight in my state--even my own county--is WAY bigger than I ever imagined including a lawsuit brought by a group in ca in concert with the NRA over the carry issue.

      I have learned that what may be an obvious trade off for the good of society via limitations/regulations is absolutely NOT viewed that way by many, if not most.

      From forums, I have learned that there are WAY too many obvious CT nuts with guns and WAY to many guns in their hands; WAY more than I imagined.

      I have learned that no one can really explain away the need to hoard weapons via "self defense". It's a paranoid ruse.

      I have learned that many believe we need to work on the source of the problem (which I do agree with, but that will take decades to see significant results) versus regs being put in place to support those changes.

      And I could go on.

      And what this has done is move me farther into the pro-regulation camp and cemented me more firmly there.

      I really have learned a lot.

      202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

      by cany on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 04:25:23 PM PST

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    •  Abrograting rights is not a liberal or progressive (11+ / 0-)

      position that I would ever support.

      The "absolutism" you reference is not one-sided here, both sides practice it.

      We already have the tools necessary to stop the violence we are witnessing, you don't want to fund those solutions so you belittle anyone presenting them.

      NICS overhaul and mandatory reporting would stop 99% of people not legally allowed to own guns from getting them.

      Fully funded mental health services.

      Standards for violence in movies, video games and television could be controlled right now by the FCC.

      Children are taught that violence is the only solution in dispute resolution.

      When will you take responsibility for encouraging violence in our society by ignoring these legitimate issues and making it only about the gun?

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 05:02:35 PM PST

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      •  Welcome to the party! (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Glen The Plumber

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 05:31:08 PM PST

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      •  But it is about "the gun" (4+ / 0-)

        I fear for this country as more enthusiasts and mentally un-balanced have easy access to weapons.  

        It appears we will have more killing sprees in our future.  More Sandy Hooks, more Auroras, Columbines (two armed guards were there).  

        It is pure insanity, loathsome, ugly,and obscene that our society is still able to find it tolerable to support the second amendment.

        •  We can agree to disagree or we can actually do (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher, FrankRose, Robobagpiper

          something about it.  First choice to address your issue could be accomplished by amending the Constitution.

          What I find intolerable is that the violence we are witnessing will not stop with the ban of any item.  

          Addressing the way humanity expresses it's violent nature must be dealt with, if we are to evolve as a species and a society.

          Until then, it's all window dressing designed to appease your manufactured fears.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 08:21:51 PM PST

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          •  "to appease your manufactured fears" (5+ / 0-)

            Oh really????  

            If we do nothing, it is status quo situation, nothing changes.

            Changes have to be brought about to change this love affair with weapons of mass murders, suicides, and crimes of all types.

            It is the "gun" RKBA supporters do not want to give up despite all of the collateral damage "the gun" does to the innocent amongst us.  

            •  Um, "that colleteral damage" you reference has (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annecros, FrankRose, Robobagpiper

              dropped 17% in the last 10 yrs.

              Here's the link for a 3rd time, just in case you missed it:

              http://www.cnn.com/...

              Among violent incidents reported to police, murders were down about 0.7 percent, robberies dropped 4 percent, aggravated assaults declined 3.9 percent, and forcible rapes were down 2.5 percent.

              Despite the positive trend, crime remains a serious problem in many urban pockets riddled with gangs, drugs, and poverty.

              There were 14,612 murders last year, on average one every 36 minutes. That's a small decline from 14,722 in 2010, but it's a decrease of nearly 17 percent from a decade ago.

              Special note, the emphasis is on gangs, drugs and poverty...nothing to do with guns or their availability.

              How about we address these things? Awe, I know, that would mean we'd actually go after the drug money launders at HSBC and seize their $2+ trillion in assets that generate $38 billion a month in profits, dammit it...that status quo wins again!

              A side link in the article shows a correlation to police being downsized and an increase in crime. Daggonit, who could ever thought that would happen when we fight unfunded wars for 10 yrs, increase our military spending to the highest in human history while defunding our social safety nets to pay for it.

              Who wudda thunk?!

              Hell, if we seized HSBC's assets and "nationalized" them, we'd have enough money to have a cop on every street corner, bridges built out of gold  and have money left over to feed and cloth every one of the million plus homeless and their children!

              How about you review your "manufactured fears" again, in light of these facts, please.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 09:36:50 PM PST

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              •  In my humble opinion, the lack of strong (2+ / 0-)

                federal and state regulation of gun sales whether in gun shows or licensed dealers, the weakening of the ATF, and the lack of oversight by the House unless it's about "fast and furious" has led to a laissez-faire approach to weapons.  Whatever happens, happens.  Nothing we can do about it so we are not going to do anything about it.  

                How about shutting down all gun and ammo sales say for a month and then see just see how that affects those statistics?

                If crime and murders go down, perhaps there just might be a correlation to "the gun" and maybe that would open some absolutist's minds.

                 

                •  Crimes and murders have gone down without (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  annecros, FrankRose, Robobagpiper

                  doing anything.

                  So please tell me why we would want to force ourselves out of office for the next generation when we embrace gun control?

                  Why?  Do you really think the Republicans have done that well welding the levers of power in this nation?

                  I don't.

                  And again, you're not actually addressing the issue are you?  Crimes have gone down, so why do we need to go after gun owners again?

                  Do you not understand the concept of Manufactured Consent?

                   

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 10:23:27 PM PST

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                  •  Manufactured Consent? (2+ / 0-)

                    Like it has been Manufactured against those of us who would like to eliminate gun violence at all levels?

                    That's what it feels like to me.  So much of the propaganda comes fromRBKA absolutists.  If someone like me offers an opinion or speaks out against the selling of weapons of mass murders, we are then accused of undermining the election of Democrats. To me, that is manufacturing the status quo.

                    Now is the time to get tough, speak tough, take tough stands, and get rid of those weapons and ammo that have been used in mass murders.  

                    I just wonder what would happen if gun shows and gun dealers had no more guns  or ammo to sell.  

                    •  Who is being the absolutist here again? (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      annecros, FrankRose, Robobagpiper

                      When presented with facts that crimes have gone down you still insist "something must be done about guns and ammo"....

                      Wow.

                      I don't buy into moral relativism.  I want all crimes to stop, that ain't ever going to happen, but we can eliminate the conditions that create the majority of the violence we experience in this society.

                      "Gun violence" has been proven to be a red herring.  We could however address poverty, the war on drugs, the institutional crime syndicate formerly known as our government, now couldn't we?

                      We could make the lives of millions of people better by instituting policies that would create living wage jobs, fund our schools, teach children peaceful resolution of disputes not violence as it is glamorized in movies, TV show and video games.  

                      We could, couldn't we? And we could stay in power while doing it.

                      So, will you take responsibility for the millions of deaths you are now supporting and ensuring by ignoring the things we can accomplish over your desired wish to get the guns?

                      It ain't about the guns, it never was but why do you insist that it should be?

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 11:20:09 PM PST

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                  •  Gun deaths are on a steady rising slope for the (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Glen The Plumber

                    last 10 years.  Look at the CDC data for total deaths by guns (nicely graphed here).

                    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

                    by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 03:57:35 AM PST

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                    •  A red herring, thanks for sharing. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      FrankRose, Robobagpiper, KVoimakas

                      Murders have gone down, period.

                      Crime has gone down, period.

                      Anything that tries to obfuscate these cold hard facts is a red herring.

                      If crimes are going down why are you making it about the gun again?

                      http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/...

                      WASHINGTON – For the first time in 45 years, homicide is no longer among the 15 leading causes of death in the United States, according to an analysis by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

                      in 2010, there were 16,065 homicides, down from 16,799 a year earlier

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 06:23:36 AM PST

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            •  Thir fears are not manufactured, they are brain- (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              washed by their religion. How can we do something about a problem that doesn't exist?  It is like trying to explain to a creationist that dinosaurs did not roam the earth with humans, DOES NOT COMPUTE as the Earth is only a few thousand years old - no matter how much science we explain to them they will always revert to their sacred texts and worship their gods.

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 03:54:08 AM PST

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        •  Sadly I think you are correct, although I hope I (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          am wrong.  I think the gun deaths that are rising steadily since 2000 at about 330 more deaths every year will spike up soon because of the high capacity firearms, the laws getting laxer, all the "stand your ground" laws, and even the economic and mental health issues.  So I think the pretty straight line increase we are seeing now is going to spike, but once again, I sure hope I am wrong (although the status quo of 32,000 gun deaths per year is still an outrageous number at 88 deaths per day, but that is still better than more).

          Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 08:32:27 PM PST

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          •  Nope not according to the FBI: (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            annecros, FrankRose, Robobagpiper

            http://www.cnn.com/...

            Among violent incidents reported to police, murders were down about 0.7 percent, robberies dropped 4 percent, aggravated assaults declined 3.9 percent, and forcible rapes were down 2.5 percent.
            Newark struggles with police cuts, crime

            Despite the positive trend, crime remains a serious problem in many urban pockets riddled with gangs, drugs, and poverty.

            There were 14,612 murders last year, on average one every 36 minutes. That's a small decline from 14,722 in 2010, but it's a decrease of nearly 17 percent from a decade ago.

            Who's zooming whom here? Did you note the problem wasn't anything to do with guns or their availability?

            Gangs, drugs and poverty.

            Hummm...how about we fix those things first????

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Jan 01, 2013 at 09:21:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Always keep on saying suicides or accidents don't (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              count, right?  It is part of the mantra.  I was talking about total gun deaths and you choose to go look at murders and somehow equate lower murders to lower gun deaths - apples and oranges.  Look at the (incomplete CDC data on gun deaths).

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Jan 02, 2013 at 03:43:07 AM PST

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