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View Diary: Open thread for night owls: Making the Iranian economy (and Iranians) scream (109 comments)

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  •  So what WOULD you do about Iran (0+ / 0-)

    and other rogue nations? Iran's regime should be anathema to Progressives!

    •  Not start another war, that much I know. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gooserock, Jeff Y, JeffW, randallt

      It's not an easy problem to solve.




      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
      ~ Jerry Garcia

      by DeadHead on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 08:44:46 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why Should We Solve Them? (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jeff Y, DeadHead, Jim P, annieli

        Given the big picture.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 08:46:58 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I agree. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Jeff Y

          It still remains a problem for us regardless, as deciding whether it should be a problem is a problem in and of itself. Who knows how much money is spent simply pondering the Iran question?

          Kind of like, if you choose not to choose, you still have made a choice. Or something. ;)




          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us.
          ~ Jerry Garcia

          by DeadHead on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:12:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Indeed (4+ / 0-)

      Sanctions are preferable to war.  Lets not pretend that the Iraq war has been easier on the Iraqi people than the sanctions.   There is an even easier solution: if The Iranian regime cares about its people drop the stupid nuclear weapons program already

      Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

      by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 08:45:28 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  IF it has a nuclear weapons program... (9+ / 0-)

        ...which is far from proven, although the Iranian record for secretly engaging in nuclear weapons work in the relatively recent past and lying about it does not give much comfort. The International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors have not found proof that Iran is currently working on creating a bomb, but they haven't been allowed to go everywhere. And the production of more threshold level enriched uranium as well as the building of suspicious facilities that have yet to be inspected is not encouraging on this score.

        But who gets to decide who has nukes or not? Those sanctions, which are, if you believe the links above, making it hard for Iran to obtain medicine for children, were initiated by the nation that has the second largest (and presumably best) arsenal of nuclear weapons on the planet and are backed by four other nuclear-armed nations. There is something just a tad sanctimonious about that. Just as there is about threats from Israel, which reputedly has an arsenal of 200-400 nukes.

        The Iranians believe they have the right to the full nuclear cycle: from raw uranium ore to finished fuel pellets for the array of nuclear powered electricity-generating plants it wants to operate and for medical isotopes. Of course, the problem is that all nuclear operations can be dual use: the power to provide light and heat cities and the power to obliterate them. Only free rein for well-skilled inspectors can keep country from using the tools needed for the former to create the latter.

        Nuclear proliferation is not a good thing, to be sure. And the authoritarian, reactionary, theocratic Iranian regime's oppression of its own people is appalling. But sanctions that make it hard for to obtain medicine for children?

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:28:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a matter of weighting (0+ / 0-)

          Similarly, one can also say it's not proven that there are difficulties in obtaining medicines.  IN any event, shipping medicines or removing them from the sanctions list is pretty straightforward.

          THere's something highly unsavory to permitting group of people who are by all accounts prone to violence, including against their own countrymen, access to nuclear weapons because they decide to hold those countrymen hostage.  Remember the government that wants the weapons and the kids needing medicines are two separate groups of people.   A small cadre is holding an entire nation hostage to get what it wants.

          Who's to say that our nasty theocratic regim would give the kids the drugs, since they're already holding those kids hostage?

          It isn't pretty but none of the option are good

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:37:44 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Prone to violence... that's hilarious! (0+ / 0-)

            I seem to recall that one of our countries has the other surrounded by military bases and is fighting a hot war along the entire eastern border of the other, and has a long history of successfully meddling in the internal political affairs of the other.

            Must be Iran, since they're the violent ones, right?

            "The Democratic Party is not our friend: it is the only party we can negotiate with."

            by 2020adam on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:34:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Might want to talk with residents (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charliehall2

              of NOrthern Israel about your view.

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:51:46 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  and I love this (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charliehall2

              Iran should have nuclear weapons because Iraq War.  

              Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

              by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:52:25 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Pfft (0+ / 0-)

          Paragraph 1) Either they are pulling a Saddam and trying to convince everyone they are more involved with a nuclear weapons program than they actually are. Or they really do have a program. Id go with B as our secret service has been putting a good amount of effort into stopping them. And this times its not Bushies cronies doing the work.

          2)Your Paragraph answers your own question. Who gets to determine who has nuclear weapons? Those who already do...

          this actually is for a good reason. Back in the day when we first developing nukes. This shit was a big deal. "I am become death the destroyer of worlds" shouted a man who's intellectual capacity probably outstrips the collective body of this site.

          It required a great deal of effort to get a nuke. It required a complex society with strong organization and sophisticated educational systems.

          Now we have nations who are just now developing nukes. What else from the 1940s do we consider sophisticated? Does a nation who could just now develop black and white TV's sound like a nation who should have access to nuclear ANYTHING?

          No the nation is a Child of nations and should not be allowed to have sharp objects.

          Build me something that makes me shout that gibberish THAN go for a nuke.  

          3) Horse pucky. Iran has repeatedly turned down the opportunity for  Russians to ship them all the nuclear material they needed for the sole reason of wanting to develop their own nuclear industry so they have access to nukes. There really is no other reason for their behavior.

          4) Gota crack some eggs to make an omelet.  Not an exact analogy as we not targeting the children but sacrifices must be made...

          If you look historically (at least from the numbers Ive seen) and I am stepping well outside of my area of expertise here. Nations tend to give up after a similar % of their population gets lost or economic damage.

          German WWII, Germany WWI,  Japan WWII. The United States South Civil War, France First part of WWII

          It takes a lot of pressure to break a nation.
           

          •  You think Iran is uneducated and ... (6+ / 0-)

            ...unsophisticated? How many Iranians do you know?

            I made no claim that Iran is not intent on developing nuclear weapons or headed down that path. However, your claim that there are only two choices—Iran is either head-faking or actually building a bomb—could be right or could be dismissing a third choice, that it is doing just as it says.

            As for you claim that the answer must be "B" because the U.S. (and perhaps Israel) are bollixing the supposed weapons program has no basis in fact. The uranium-enriching centrifuges have presumably been screwed up by cyber-attacks on two or more occasions. And some of Iran's nuclear scientists have been assassinated or kidnapped. But what evidence is there that the centrifuges or scientists were working on weapons rather than nuclear power systems? There are hints and they are discomfiting. But proof? Not even close.

            "Gotta crack some eggs to make an omelet?" In the context of harming children, that's a foul little cliché.

            Four of your examples of broken nations refer to those with which the United States had been in wars it did not start and hundreds of thousands of fatalities and millions of casualties had been incurred. In the fifth, the breaking of France was accomplished in short order by the Blitzkrieg at the behest of one of history's worst monsters.

            Not the greatest analogies, to say the least. Where exactly is the war that Iran has started? What are the total casualties?

            Pfffft, indeed.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:43:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Third choice: naval power plants... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annieli

              ...the small size of reactors, especially submarines, requires close-to-bomb-grade enrichment. These could give our navy trouble in the Persian Gulf.

              Float like a manhole cover, sting like a sash weight! Clean Coal Is A Clinker!

              by JeffW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:45:26 AM PST

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            •  Iran fights proxy wars (0+ / 0-)

              most notably in Lebanon, against progressive forces in that country and against Israel. Its client Hezbollah has basically destroyed the only outpost of progressive values in the Arab world, and has rained terror (almost literally) on Israel despite the fact that the UN has stated clearly that Israel holds no part of Lebanon any more, having withdrawn completely over a decade ago.

              Sorry, but the mullahs have blood on their hands, including one entire country.

            •  A lot (0+ / 0-)

              I work with some on a daily basis. They are fine. Their home nation is not.

              Iran IS UNSOPHISTICATED AND UNEDUCATED. The fact that they are a sophisticated nation is a myth at best, willfull ignorance most likely.

              It it is not an option to say they are doing as they just as they say they are.

              Arguing this is like standing in the parking lot 5 days latter yelling something about about there being 3 seconds left on the clock.

              Its not a claim its a bet. Serious people do serious things. Bush was a fucking idiot with little reason to do anything other than stupidity. The people involved here are a bit different than the know nothings that followed orders of blind action.

              The analogies are just fine. Pick your own time period if you would like. Those wars are just the most recent and fresh in peoples minds. Or did you live during the siege of Carthage?

              Iran is funding terrorism and has already killed many American citizens. We are at war.

              There are three options.
              A) We let Iran do what they want they get nukes. The terrorists will gets nukes and we will have nuclear terrorism by their own lack of organization or by direct intention.

              B) We break Iran via sanctions.

              c) We are forced to burn Iran to the ground to prevent them from getting nukes. Hundreds of thousands die if not millions.

              Lets hope for B)

          •  On your third point you fail to mention (0+ / 0-)

            that the US has forced agreements which were reached to solve this matter, through negotiations which didn't involve the US, to fail basically because the US got into a huff because it wasn't involved in them.  

            Lamb chop, we can quibble what to call it, but I think we can both agree it's creepy.

            by InAntalya on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:56:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  And the point (0+ / 0-)

          About Russia being willing to provide fuel is pretty damning, sadly

          Then again, living in the same neighborhood as Israel and being between two US wars would make me want nukes too

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:12:58 PM PST

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        •  Well, the idea is that sanctions are supposed.. (0+ / 0-)

          ...to hurt, so if you exempt vulnerable people it's not worth doing.  Personally I think the most genuinely targeted and overall fruitful approach would be to subvert Iran's government, but a combination of misplaced legality and less-misplaced takeaways from recent history make that impossible at present.

          You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

          by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:44:37 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Who cares about the nukes (0+ / 0-)

          I'd rather continue sanctions on Iran to destroy their theocratic regime so they can one day return to western secularism like they had under the shah.

          If it means millions of innocent people suffering because of it, so be it.

          Quite frankly it sickens me that people can care so much about the well being of Iranians and simultaneously hate on people that they hate so much (like Israelis).

      •  But our intelligence, Britain's intelligence, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MrJayTee

        Israeli intelligence, at least chief figures in them, say there is no nuclear weapons program. Who says there is are all neo-cons and right wingers, and not in Intelligence.

        Remember when we were demanding Saddam hand over his WMD and he couldn't, because he didn't have them?

        I actually saw the original broadcast, where Madeline Albright was asked if the 500,000 children reported dead from Iraqi sanctions was worth it. She says "Yes."

        What's that tell us about who, and what, is a real threat to humanity?


        The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

        by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:50:47 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Um, not that I've heard (0+ / 0-)

          Both the intelligence communities and more portably the IAEA seem to be unsure and switch back and forth about what's going on.  At lest last I heard.   If there were good evidence I can't see why Obama and Cameron would be pushing for more sanctions.  

          Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

          by Mindful Nature on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:10:15 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are links within this link (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MrJayTee

            which will take you to the source quotes http://fcnl.org/...

            Chief of Staff Lt. Gen. Benny Gantz, head of the Israeli military (IDF):
            "[Iran] is going step by step to the place where it will be able to decide whether to manufacture a nuclear bomb. It hasn't decided to go the extra mile."
            "I don't think [Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei] will want to go the extra mile. I think the Iranian leadership is composed of very rational people."
            4/25/12, The Guardian
            Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak:

            "[Iran has] not yet decided to manufacture atomic weapons."
            04/25/12, The Raw Story
            Director of National [US] Intelligence James Clapper:
            "We continue to assess Iran is keeping open the option to develop nuclear weapons ... We do not know, however, if Iran will eventually decide to build nuclear weapons.
            01/31/12, Unclassified Statement for the Record on the Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community for the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence
            Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta:
            "Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon? No. ..."
            2/8/12, Face the Nation

            "I think [Iran is] developing a nuclear capability [but] our intelligence makes clear that they haven't made the decision to develop a nuclear weapon." 2/28/12, Senate Budget Committee<

            There's a whole lot of others. So where is this "they're building a nuke weapon" coming from? The same crowd that keeps lying us into wars, apparently.


            The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

            by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:27:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We're building a phony debate here (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              annieli, charliehall2

              There is a consensus between the people quoted above and their alleged contradictors that Iran is seeking to get its nuclear military capacity to the point where making that final decision to develop weapons would be relatively easy.  

              You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

              by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:49:21 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  And the "phony" part of the debate (0+ / 0-)

                is the assertion that they've already decided to do that, when there's no such evidence.

                "John has a shotgun in his home, and that means he can and will go out and shoot up Main Street."

                Israel has 200 nukes. The Saudis, Egypt, and some UAE states have announced their intention to build nuclear power plants which would make them just as capable as Iran is.

                Frankly, given actual history, I'd think the Wahhabi's with a nuke capability would be the US's worry.

                Sorry, I don't buy the war-mongers crap.


                The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

                by Jim P on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:39:26 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Misreporting of the IAEA's Iran reports. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Jim P, InAntalya

            Everyone from the Times on down consistently obfuscates the bottom line in these reports, which have consistently held that whatever else they are engaged in, the Iranian Government does not have a nuclear weapons program. They may eventually get to the point where they could start one, and they may then decide to do so, but that simply is not what is happening right now.

            "The Democratic Party is not our friend: it is the only party we can negotiate with."

            by 2020adam on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:39:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Like the infamous "wipe Israel off the map" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              2020adam

              which gets reported as fact to this very moment.

              When the actual idiom used means "a spot on the pages of history" meaning a minor, transient thing.

              The misleading interpretation implies obsession with ending Israel, when the actual statement meant "small potatoes, it'll disappear on its own eventually."

              Of such tricks is propaganda made.


              The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

              by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 11:21:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That has always bugged me (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                2020adam

                Plus the focus on ahmedinejad when he's only the President.  

                Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:56:17 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  It was fact (0+ / 0-)

                as reported on the Iranian government's official web site.

                Stop lying.

                •  It was a horseshit translation as proven (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  2020adam

                  by Farsi-speakers such as Juan Cole. http://www.nytimes.com/...

                  "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian," remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse." Since Iran has not "attacked another country aggressively for over a century," he said in an e-mail exchange, "I smell the whiff of war propaganda."

                  Jonathan Steele, a columnist for the left-leaning Guardian newspaper in London, recently laid out the case this way: "The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

                  You have no fucking link, you can't possibly provide a fucking link, and you're a fucking liar. Or are you just so fucking stupid and gullible you'll say whatever you're told?

                  Or is it you think other people are stupid and gullible?

                  Whatever, get lost.


                  The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

                  by Jim P on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:41:18 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm right, you are wrong (0+ / 0-)
                    If Mr. Steele and Mr. Cole are right, not one word of the quotation — Israel should be wiped off the map — is accurate.

                    But translators in Tehran who work for the president's office and the foreign ministry disagree with them. All official translations of Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement, including a description of it on his Web site (www.president.ir/eng/), refer to wiping Israel away. Sohrab Mahdavi, one of Iran's most prominent translators, and Siamak Namazi, managing director of a Tehran consulting firm, who is bilingual, both say "wipe off" or "wipe away" is more accurate than "vanish" because the Persian verb is active and transitive.

                    http://www.nytimes.com/...

                    And here is the original official translation:

                    http://web.archive.org/...

                    Maybe he was mistranslated, but the source of the mistranslation is his own office. He wanted us to understand that he said "wiped out".

                    I'm sick and tired of people like you making excuses for a genocidal wannabe. You would have been quite happy in  the Ministry of Truth in Oceania.

            •  The point is that their current program... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              charliehall2

              ...is designed to get to the point where they can start an explicit weapons program very easily.  As is constantly noted by Iran's relative defenders here and elsewhere, give them some credit for not being stupid: they know how to situate their nuclear program in a way that obfuscates and postpones the weaponization issue to a point where it can't be stopped short of full-scale war, and that's what they are doing.  Personally I think the issue isn't where a country is with nuclear weaponization but what kind of regime they're under--we could give Argentina nukes tomorrow and nobody would worry except maybe Chilean paranoids--so my view is that we're approaching this all wrong.

              You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

              by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:52:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Obfuscation works (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                charliehall2

                I notice the quotes are all from February through April, but each of the relevant agencies have concluded that there is a program and that there isn't a program at various times.  (This summer had a shift in the public statements I think).

                Still the fact tht the regime won't accept fuel, which is a cheaper and easier way to get power and medicine is impossible to reconcile with the absence of an aim to weaponize.

                Hay hombres que luchan un dia, y son buenos Hay otros que luchan un año, y son mejores Hay quienes luchan muchos años, y son muy buenos. Pero hay los que luchan toda la vida. Esos son los imprescendibles.

                by Mindful Nature on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:59:26 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Remember, children died from Iraq sanctions... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          annieli, charliehall2

          ...because Saddam Hussein made that decision. (And I don't mean the decision to do something to bring about sanctions, I mean how he chose to run Iraq under the sanctions which was to divert all of the permitted oil revenues to non-civilian spending.)  It's an interesting question whether our policies should be bounded by the policy responses of our most sociopathic enemies, but saying that sanctions killed Iraqi children misplaces the real blame.

          You know, I sometimes think if I could see, I'd be kicking a lot of ass. -Stevie Wonder at the Glastonbury Festival, 2010

          by Rich in PA on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:47:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Ask around the world who the number (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli, basquebob, 2020adam, MrJayTee

      one creator of terror is; who the most dangerous rogue nation is, and judging from your question, you might want to be sitting down when you get the answer.


      The Internet is just the tail of the Corporate Media dog.

      by Jim P on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:42:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Not a damned thing (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JeffW, annieli

      at this point.  We've blown through trillions getting into wars in places we should not have been in in the first place.  

      I'm tired of America being the world police.  We're not paid for it like we are, and we waste our resources and lives, and kill millions of people for what seems to me to amount to a 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss' routine for those we 'liberate' or help.

      "You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear, doubt, and disbelief. Free your mind." -Morpheus, The Matrix

      by Sarenth on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:52:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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