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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: Gun policy, fiscal bluff, and other Congressional follies (197 comments)

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  •  See this is why (12+ / 0-)

    I say things like, "Yes, the difference between a clip and a magazine, or a bullet and a cartridge" DOES matter, and very much, as we move forward in a discussion of gun policy.

    I see a 58% support for ban all semiautomatics. I also saw mcjoan make a statement about "the obscene availability of automatic weapons" here the other day which went mostly unchallenged.

    Majority opinion in DC vs Heller:

    (3) The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense.
    A blanket ban on all semiautomatic firearms would clearly be unconstitutional in the face of Heller and McDonald.
    All that 58% figure tells me is that a lot of people probably don't know the difference between automatic and semi automatic.

    NOMENCLATURE MATTERS if you're talking about changing laws.

    "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

    by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:01:59 AM PST

    •  I'm getting tired of this shell game. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DRo, bear83, al23, ratcityreprobate

      "This is automatic, this is semi-automatic, this isn't automatic at all but it can be converted to semi-automatic so it might be, might not be."

      The gun makers are going to have to design a gun that can't shoot hundreds of bullets through children in a matter of minutes and sell that instead of what they've been selling.

      Whatever you want to call it.

      "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

      by Bush Bites on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:07:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  nomenclature matters (11+ / 0-)

        when writing laws.
        How is that a problematic concept?

        "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

        by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:10:23 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's an NRA shell game and you know it. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          al23, ratcityreprobate

          The effect of the weapon is the only thing that matters.

          What do you need to protect your home or bring down a bear versus what do you need to wipe out a classroom of children in a few seconds.

          How is that a problematic concept?

          "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

          by Bush Bites on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:14:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How about (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpunk, PavePusher

            engaging in substantive discussion of what I brought up rather than trying to run it into a fucking ditch?
            YOU'RE the one playing the shell game.

            "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

            by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:17:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  if you want a ban to happen, (10+ / 0-)

            nomenclature should be very important to you.  for one thing, calling for a ban of automatic weapons, a la mcjoan the other day, just makes a person look like they have no idea what they're talking about.

            try buying a fully automatic gun sometime.  

            so in seeking an AWB, it is critically important for gun control proponents to use precise language; otherwise, the bill will be DOA and for good reason.

            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

            by Cedwyn on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:32:24 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  See, that's just it. (7+ / 0-)

              They DO use precise language: in the legislation. What they count on is people not realizing exactly what they mean. They invent terms like "assault weapon" (or "partial-birth abortion") so folks will just say, "Oh, sure! ban that shit!" and go on to the next thing.

              "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

              by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:34:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I'd go by firepower. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ratcityreprobate

              I don't think a ban on any type of gun will happen, by the way.

              This country's crazy.

              "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

              by Bush Bites on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:35:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  if you truly believe this, (12+ / 0-)
                I don't think a ban on any type of gun will happen, by the way.

                This country's crazy.

                then please stop demanding the dems commit electoral suicide.
                When Congress passed the assault weapons ban, the NRA vowed vengeance. Months later, the Republicans, backed by the still-outraged NRA, romped the Democrats in the midterm election, gaining 54 seats and control of the House for the first time in 40 years. Clinton, for one, believed that voting for the the assault weapons ban had cost about 20 House Democrats their seats—meaning that the measure had caused a political backlash that led to a GOP the majority in the House. If Obama and others confront the NRA, they had better expect—and prepare for—a battle that will reach a crescendo on November 4, 2014.
                did you know that most gun violence is committed with handguns, and that mass shootings involving "assault weapons" account for only 2% of u.s. gun violence, tops?  how much of a remedy would focusing on a few specific types of guns really provide?

                did you know that the majority of u.s. gun deaths are suicides?

                so if you want to address the problem of (gun) violence, then focus on what drives people to violence and remedy that:  fund education and anti-poverty programs and expand mental health services.

                because like it or not, the second amendment exists, which makes gun bans problematic.  the most we're likely to see is cracking down on internet ammo sales, limiting clip capacity to 20 rounds, and maybe a tax on manufacturers or something.

                so if you want to fight, fight.  but if you really, truly believe this:

                I don't think a ban on any type of gun will happen, by the way.

                This country's crazy.

                then you should devote your energies to something you do think could pass and that would actually be broadly effective, n'est-ce pas? i mean there are uphill battles, and then there's pickett's charge.

                Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                by Cedwyn on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:55:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  going after that 2% is well worth the effort (0+ / 0-)

                  as I frequently note, I live in Newtown. Doing other things also makes sense, but don't dismiss the 2%, which appears to be a number on the rise. That's one case where the 2% is a big number.

                  "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                  by Greg Dworkin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 09:58:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  criminologists don't seem to believe (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Greg Dworkin, PavePusher

                    Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                    by Cedwyn on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 10:15:55 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  wrong interpretation of data (0+ / 0-)

                      the number of mass murder cases is steady but the total number of homicides is dropping, so the % that are mass murder is rising. That's what I said and I am right.

                      still, good to see that the total number of deaths/incidences friom mass murder is not going up or is at least stady. woe to us if it were otherwise.

                      But we want them to drop.

                      Thanks for the links.

                      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 11:32:51 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  okay, so if that % is rising, (0+ / 0-)

                        still...rising to what?  a whopping 10%?  so what would banning guns used in 10% of gun deaths actually accomplish?  it would leave 90% -- the majority of them suicides -- untouched.

                        and that's not even thinking about how stores across the country have been selling out of such guns, which would all be grandfathered.

                        peace

                        Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                        by Cedwyn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 04:15:53 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  yadda yadda (0+ / 0-)

                          so don't try? Sorry, that's a non starter.

                          Connecticut will be first with the commissions to study all the angles. my advice? Stop fighting it and participate in making it work.

                          And here's common ground: fund the safety and outcomes studies that the gun lobby has tried to block.

                          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 05:03:00 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  who said anything about not trying? (0+ / 0-)

                            my point is that even if we assume the guns an AWB would affect account for 10% of u.s. gun deaths, that leaves 90% of them unaddressed.  

                            that is not effective policy.  an AWB will not solve the problem, not by a long shot.  shouldn't we be looking for solutions with broader application?

                            what is yadda yadda about that?  

                            anyhoo, i've posted several suggestions as to things i think would be more effective and less of a battle royale in congress.

                            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                            by Cedwyn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 09:46:33 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  10% is a big enough chunk to justify working (0+ / 0-)

                            on, so long as the 90% get looked at, too. It's that simple.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 09:53:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "too" being the operative word (0+ / 0-)

                            and it seems to be the case that people are bucking for the AWB and not looking at other solutions.  

                            that will not be effective.

                            because mass shootings still do not account for 5% of u.s. gun deaths, let alone 10%.

                            DiFi's new proposed ban would exempt all the semi-autos flying off of store shelves all across the country right now.  it exempts some 900 additional models.  and it's still quite debatable if the first AWB accomplished anything.

                            in the calculus of balancing effective measures with what can get past congress, an AWB is not the answer.  fixing what drives people to violence would do a lot more to solve our gun problem.

                            peace

                            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                            by Cedwyn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 10:13:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  can't be by itself (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cedwyn
                            it seems to be the case that people are bucking for the AWB and not looking at other solutions.  

                            that will not be effective.

                            Agree. Background checks, limits of who can buy, seem effective. CA seems to have effective laws. Make them nationwide. DiFi's suggestion alone not good enough.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 11:45:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and since her AWB isn't good enough on its own (0+ / 0-)

                            we need to focus our efforts on other remedies.

                            all i've heard so far is a separate bill to limit clip capacity.

                            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                            by Cedwyn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 01:17:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no (0+ / 0-)

                            Work on the other stuff. Don't drop a damned thing until they are proven useless.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 02:08:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  way to go, WH (0+ / 0-)
                            The White House is weighing a far broader and more comprehensive approach to curbing the nation’s gun violence than simply reinstating an expired ban on assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition, according to multiple people involved in the administration’s discussions.
                            http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 03:07:26 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  more... (0+ / 0-)
                            “They are very clearly committed to looking at this issue comprehensively,” said Dan Gross, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, who has been involved in the discussions. The proposals under consideration, he added, are “a deeper exploration than just the assault-weapons ban.”

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 03:08:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  praise crom! (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Greg Dworkin

                            that was a great article, especially these bits:

                            In addition to potential legislative proposals, Biden’s group has expanded its focus to include measures that would not need congressional approval and could be quickly implemented by executive action...Possibilities include changes to federal mental-health programs and modernization of gun-tracking efforts by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

                            ...Adler, who has submitted recommendations to Biden’s group, said he has told administration officials that they need to pursue multiple measures to increase their chances of success.

                            ...Obama’s advisers have calculated that the longer they wait, the more distance there is from the Newtown massacre and the greater the risk that the bipartisan political will to tackle gun violence will dissipate.

                            i'm sure he's right in that, which is yet another strike against an AWB.  because that would consume a ton of time, energy, and political capital, as guns fly off the shelves all the while.  do we really want the next year or two making the HCR debate look like a church picnic?

                            and no way is a gun database going to fly.  no way, not since other improvements and actually enforcing existing law and properly funding the agencies responsible for such would serve the same purpose.

                            peace

                            Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

                            by Cedwyn on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:27:17 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  they will sort through and I am certain (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cedwyn

                            every proposal made will not fly. That's okay.

                            Unlike others, i am not an absolutist ;-)

                            But something more than what we have now will need to come out of this. if something else than AWB helps, great. Not so sure high capacity clips can be justified. But we'll see.

                            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                            by Greg Dworkin on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:44:38 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  PS (0+ / 0-)

                          http://www.dailykos.com/...

                          start making suggestions. we will listen.

                          "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                          by Greg Dworkin on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 06:23:36 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Will the political capitol you squander.... (0+ / 0-)

                    be worth the death and destruction in other areas?

                    I'd hazard a guess that simple health care reform (including mental health) will save far more lives than any feel-good attempt at false and doomed-to-failure "gun control".

                    •  not false (0+ / 0-)

                      not doomed to failure
                      and worth doing.

                      There is no law that says mental health issues can't also be addressed, and it should, but don't use it as a dodge to avoid addressing gun policy. Do both.

                      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 07:15:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  and by the way (0+ / 0-)

                      I think it can be done in a way that respects gun rights and the right to bear arms.

                      "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

                      by Greg Dworkin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 07:29:18 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

      •  Ladies and gentlemen of the jury... (4+ / 0-)

        I give you Exhibit A.

      •  Yeah! Darn those 'words' & their 'meanings'. (3+ / 0-)

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:26:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's the Humpty Dumpty philosophy of language. (6+ / 0-)
          "I don't know what you mean by 'glory'," Alice said.

          Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

          "But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

          "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less."

          "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

          "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

          by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:28:38 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Confess I've no idea about (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, DRo, 43north

      the difference between automatic and semi automatic, but if polled,I would pick ban no matter which way the question was asked. Do you think the poll respondents would have responded differently if they knew the difference?

      "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

      by tardis10 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:17:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  They may well (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cedwyn, tardis10, FrankRose, 43north, wishbone

        but we'll never know unless we can know that they do, right?

        Confess I've no idea about the difference between automatic and semi automatic
        Thanks for helping make my point.

        A semiautomatic weapon fires one round with each trigger pull, chambering each consecutive round on its own using the energy expended by the previous one.

        An automatic weapon is a machine gun. Hold the trigger down and it keeps firing until either you release the trigger or expend all the ammo.

        Hope that helps.

        "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

        by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:21:08 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  but if you adjust the amount of force it takes to (0+ / 0-)

          pull the trigger on a semi auto such as the bushmaster you can fire rounds VERY fast.....so fast you can kill another 10 or 20 six year olds before the advancing police take you out or you blow out your own brains.

          wanna go hunting for deer? take a bolt action rifle with two or three rounds or a double barrel shotgun with two slugs and only shoot if you are confident you will get a clean kill. otherwise you are just some cowboy stuck in an adolescent dream world forever.

          •  What does hunting deer (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FrankRose, rockhound, oldpunk

            have to do with anything?

            "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

            by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 06:34:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  i assume hunting is one of the major reasons (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              al23

              people own guns. no? i guess the joy of target shooting or protecting one's family and property from the ever annoying zombies roaming the countryside are other legitimate reasons but i see no justification for possessing assault weapons or .50 cal sniper rifles in a civilized society. just like i see no reason folks should have a right to their own nuclear pile in the back yard or cadmium recycling buisness in their garage or artificial heart implantation online service. oh wait the local well regulated militia is marching by and i want to offer them some hot chocolate....

          •  Singe, I get your intent, your desire (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kestrel9000, singe, oldpunk

            Your understanding of how your referenced Bushmaster was "adjusted" is false.

            You'd be better served by doing the following:

            1) I want to ban magazine-fed guns.
            2) I want to ban any gun which can fire more than 20 rounds in a minute, in the hands of an average shooter.

            I say average, as some highly practiced people can load and fire a single-shot at a greater rate.

            3) I want to ban possession of ammunition greater than "x" rounds.  Thus limiting the number of rounds available.

            Your intent will be clear, your use of inappropriate terms eliminated.

            I will however, ask that you research some of the 1930s gangsters, and find out how they obtained their Thompson Submachine Guns, Colt handguns, and Browning Automatic Rifles.
            Bonnie & Clyde, and Pretty Boy Floyd should do as starters.

        •  If I were king of the forest... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          al23

          I would ban both of these, because I don't see a need for either, except that it helps you kill things faster.  And I don't see how a ban on either impacts on anyone's "right to bear arms", since other arms are available to you to either protect yourself or kill critters (or fellow hunters) in the woods.  I've buried enough kin to know that you don't need a semi-automatic rifle to kill your hunting companions, you can do it just as easily with too much alcohol and a regular hunting rifle.

          So while I appreciate your clarity in language, it doesn't change how I would poll on the question, I'd be in favor of a ban on both.

          I do recognize that it would probably change some people's opinions, however and the degree to which it would is an interesting exercise in analysis.

          But greater understanding of terms does not always change opinions, especially if the opinions are rooted in something different than the point that the technical precision might reveal.

           

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 08:01:43 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  OK (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rockhound
            I would ban both of these, because I don't see a need
            If your understanding of rights is based on need, you don't understand rights.

            "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

            by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 10:22:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  my understanding of rights is NOT based on need (0+ / 0-)

              it's based an understanding that limitations and responsibilities are part of any right, that limitations and responsibilities don't remove rights as long as the right is still recognized, and that "need" is in fact an important aspect of any reasonable discussion about what limitations and responsibilities on rights might be, since "need" is an important counterpoint to any discussion of a limitation/responsibility.  Therefore "needs" should be part of the discussion is one is taking rights seriously.  It's an important check on one's own biases.  

              So it's just a tad bit more complicated (as are most things with human beings, like rights) than just a yes or no.

              Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

              by a gilas girl on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 11:52:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  They keep changing the definitions. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        al23

        To keep the public confused and to give the regulators a moving target to try to hit.

        "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

        by Bush Bites on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:27:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, it's the REGULATORS (5+ / 0-)

          that keep changing the definitions.
          Read the original 1994 AWB and what Dianne Feinstein is now proposing and get back to me.

          "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

          by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:32:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nah. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ratcityreprobate, al23

            I keep hearing from your buddies that you can't ban semi-automatics because there's an easy way to convert conventional guns into semiautomatics, so you're really banning conventional guns.

            They blur the definitions as a matter of course.

            "Michael Moore, who was filming a movie about corporate welfare called 'Capitalism: A Love Story,' sought and received incentives."

            by Bush Bites on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:38:53 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Uh, no. You can't convert 'conventional guns' (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              kestrel9000, 43north, Bailey2001, oldpunk

              (whatever that means) into semi-auto.

              I assume you are refering to 'assault weapons'-which can be easily converted because 'assault weapons' is, essentially, an invented word for political purposes.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:53:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Thank you (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FrankRose, 43north, wishbone

              You just showed all reading this thread you know nothing about what you're talking about, and you made my point for me better than I could have myself.

              "Everything I do is blown out of proportion. It really hurts my feelings." - Paris Hilton

              by kestrel9000 on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:59:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Show me how. (5+ / 0-)
              there's an easy way to convert conventional guns into semiautomatics
              Otherwise, ease-back on the angry hysteria.

              You want a total gun ban.  I get that.
              It won't work.
              You don't like that.
              You'll need more powerful means to make it work.
              That got us the USA PATRIOT Act.  
              Yeah, so what.  KICK DOORS - GET THE GUNS.
              That's cool as we're only going for the guns.
              Anything else discovered, that may be of an illegal nature can't be taken, used as evidence, nor used for a basis of future indictment or prosecution.
              WE'RE HERE ONLY FOR THE GUNS.  
              People should be cool with that.

              Other than it doesn't work that way.
              So go ahead, "Bush Bites" and advocate for Bush's enduring legacy:  No 4th or 5th Amendment Rights.  

              The GOP is RIGHT THERE with you, in bi-partisan solidarity.
              (insert Dean "eyyyyaaaaaah" sound file here)

        •  Uh, no. It isnt a CONSPIRCY!!! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kestrel9000

          Different words have different meanings.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:36:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  semiautomatic weapons as I understand it are (7+ / 0-)

        self loaders that fire a bullet one at a time until the magazine runs out. That's what's up for discussion.

        Automatic weapons (like the 30's tommy gun) are already regulated.

        Kestral can correct me.

        Mark Sumner wrote a great primer.

        The difference between a fully automatic weapon and one that's semi-automatic is simple: A fully automatic weapon begins firing when the trigger is pulled and keeps firing until you let off the trigger (or run out of bullets), a semi-automatic weapon fires once for each pull of the trigger.

        How quickly you can fire a semi-automatic weapon depends partly on the design of the gun, partly on the speed of your reactions. Most of the time, the answer is Very Damn Fast. As in multiple shots in a second. That's unlikely in a real-world situation, but with a semi-automatic the next shot is there when you're ready. How fast you can move your finger is generally the biggest limiting factor.

        Fully automatic weapons (which most people tend to think of as "machine guns", though the Army reserves that term for larger weapons) are not legal for private citizens in most cases. You may see fully automatic weapons available to test at a gun range, or in use at special events. But you will rarely see one at all. None of the mass shootings in the United States within recent decades has involved a fully automatic weapon. They are regulated, and that regulation appears to be working.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 05:27:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I think the aides who actually write the bills are (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Greg Dworkin, kestrel9000, 43north

      capable of learning and understanding the difference. I also think there is a difference between the generalities of public perception and the specidfics necessary for the bills. But BB's point about the generalities goes more to what people want. That is to limit the sale of guns that can shoot so many bullets so quickly. What that means practically is what will be fought in the passage of the bill. It doesn't change the need or the public desire.

      OTOH I think the more people like you educate the rest of us the better off we are in contributing to the debate. As a criminal attorney I've found that knowledge of the correct terminology about a particular weapon is important in being able to effectively cross-examine an expert. When I resort to calling a trigger guard a thingamajig it usually opens the door to allow the expert to deflect my question or twist his/her answer to hurt my case.

      "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

      by stellaluna on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 06:18:08 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Kestrel - have you written a diary on this (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kestrel9000, 43north

      nomenclature, clarifying it all for people like me who wouldn't know a bullet from a cartridge or a rifle from a "long gun"?  If you have, please provide a link to it.  If not, please write it.

      "In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for; as for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican." - H. L. Mencken

      by SueDe on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 06:23:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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