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  •  I'm sure if you researched the PSUV debates (1+ / 0-)
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    citisven

    over Venezuela's future they're talking about this issue right now.  I'll cut you a deal: we find out more first, then we come back and debate the whole matter on a more knowledgeable basis.

    "On the sidewalk the people are hustling and bustling/ They ain't got no time so they think on the thing/ That will fill in the space in between birth and death" -- Donovan Leitch

    by Cassiodorus on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 04:37:41 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  you say "jump" (0+ / 0-)

      so I jump.

      From "Dragon in the Tropics: Hugo Chávez and the Political Economy of Revolution ..." by Javier Corrales et al, page 89 ff

      The problem is that PDVSA [state oil co.] no longer possesses the managerial, technological, and financial capasity to expland oil production. It takes billions of dollars and skilled know-how to turn tar into refinable heavy oil ... This makes the company increasingly dependent on foreign investment to rebuild the oil industry.
      ... But greater collaboration between PDVSA and private foreign companies may not materialize if restrictions ... remain in place. ... In an effort to attract foreign investment, the government announced a bidding process to grant exploration licenses in the tar belt. A delegation visited Washington in the spring of 2010 to lure potential oil investors. ... In Feb 2010 Chevron and Repsol, among other international oil companies, showed willingness to consider investing in the project. A factor favoring Venezuela´s heavy oil industry is that extracting tar from the Orinoco Tar Belt to produce heavy oil does not arouse world environmental concerns, as does development of Canada´s Athabasca shale deposits.
      Emphasis mine. I could say all kinds of bitter things about that last one but will spare you.

      A certain Amy Goodman interviewsa Venezuelan delegate in Doha.

      Amy Goodman: Venezuela is perhaps the largest oil producer in the world. You’re a member of OPEC.
      Claudia Salerno: Yes, we are. And we are also—we have been recognized by OPEC last year as having the largest proven reserves in the world. And that creates for us a huge responsibility. But I have to say that even with those large numbers and large quantities of exportation, our country only represents 0.48 percent of the total emissions in the world, because Venezuela is also an Amazonian country, so we do have more than 50 million hectares of virgin forests that we are—and they will remain untouched for us, so we are extremely green country with a very old tradition of ecology and very respectful approach towards the environment.
      So all is dandy because they are just exporting the oil, not burning it themselves? I am sure the Saudi or Quatari princes would nod their agreement. And Venezuela is green because it is covered in green forest? I mean, I agree that Amy Goodman may not be a high journalistic standard, but please be honest and dont try to tell us the Venezuelans would be an example of a country that takes the climate challenge serious. Their position is understandable from the classic viewpoint, we need to sustain our society, so we take and sell what we need. But just that has brought us all to the brink of catastrophe.
      •  I'm sure the debate in the PSUV (0+ / 0-)

        is far larger than a quote from a rather biased Javier Corrales and your interpretation of some offhand quote of a diplomat.  I'm sure that Venezuela is screwed up in a number of ways -- especially the bureaucracy -- but all I was really trying to do was to suggest the existence of a debate about these things, not that its participants have all the answers.

        "On the sidewalk the people are hustling and bustling/ They ain't got no time so they think on the thing/ That will fill in the space in between birth and death" -- Donovan Leitch

        by Cassiodorus on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:45:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am trying to find (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassiodorus

          traces of this debate.

          I am really not trying to score points, Cassiodorus (theres no public here now anyway); I´m trying to take you up on your suggestion as best I can. I´m still in English googling - of course thats inappropriate, spanish will come next.

          So far I could not find anything else than scattered reports (mostly in the oil press - which is by far not just western) how Venezuela is developing its Orinoco belt.

          I have not yet found a single item containing any discussion of the ecologic/climatic consequences - or even of local ecological consequences - of this development from the Venzuelan side. If you have any (and I can deal with Spanish) please post.

          What I did find were quantities of (self proclaimed) (and mostly nonvenezuelan) socialist texts grandly ignoring the issue.

          •  Thanks for your research. (0+ / 0-)

            The real debate may not even have made it to the internet.

            "On the sidewalk the people are hustling and bustling/ They ain't got no time so they think on the thing/ That will fill in the space in between birth and death" -- Donovan Leitch

            by Cassiodorus on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 05:13:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes it has. (0+ / 0-)

              Don´t kid yourself, Cassiodorus. I believe you want a better world, including a sustainable world. Venezuela is not where that will come from.

              The President of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, presented the vision of the oil industry for the next 25 years. ...

              "The strategic project created and generated by the New PDVSA, is a national project in which we have been advancing for several years, ye which the national government in the country as a whole is committed to the body, nerve, heart and spirit ... "

              "Here is the country saved, rebuilt and in full swing, an irreversible process forever. I propose ... the National Petroleum Sovereignty, which we call the Plan 2005 - 2030: Sowing the Oil. ...

              ... All I know Venezuela: Venezuela’s oil was in the hands of a corrupt elite, anti-national, unpatriotic and powerful international interests. This elite had managed to control the oil company from your brain to your hands policy, strategy, business, and had placed immense potential to serve foreign interests. "

              ...Oil Sowing Plan implies use oil as a lever for development of this axis and this whole country. Now oil is used in this direction, to promote comprehensive development, social, economic, productive. We could take a block of Orinoco oil belt to make an alliance between South American oil companies, for example, ECOPETROL, Petroecuador, Petroperu Enarsa of Argentina, because we want to make the order of our peoples of the planet is rich in energy for future development."

              ...The gas we call Project Delta Caribe, referring to the Orinoco Delta and the Caribbean, and is an act of sovereignty over a geopolitical space. We are giving way to the front to the Caribbean and a side step to the right towards our front Atlantic, was withdrawn. We must ensure all those energy resources for the consumption of our population. Everyone has the right to consume these resources to improve our standard of living.

              ... ... [more in the same vein; recommended to read at the source]

              Chavez verbatim.

              You think that man cares one bit about the climate of the planet? He cares about his countries national income - today. In that he is no different than any other politician from Obama to Putin to whoever is now on top in China. Speaking of which, they now export to.

              Are you not a materialist? Would you expect a Saudi Prince to come up with the grand plan to solve humanity´s energy supply in an oil free fashion? Why would you even expect Chavez to do that then, when his socialism´s viability is so totally dependent on the same oil export? please, for once. Societal justice is a large part of a better world. But it´s mere existence is even more fundamental, and that is now in danger. Intra-human struggles for justice don´t give an answer for that.

              From a writeup out of my own party:

              The government’s desire to increase oil production has equally been linked, in the short term, to the President’s re-election aspirations.[xvii]  Most of this increase is to come from the new Orinoco fields, where the goal is to add 2.1 million barrels per day to total production.[xviii] According to Chavez, the Belt will receive a further US$5 billion in 2012 to this end – however, the source of this financial injection is unknown.[xix] Operations in the Belt were also declared an emergency in 2011, in order to speed up the normally lengthy licensing processes for companies wanting to contract services and equipment.[xx]
              What debate? About ecology? In the venezuelan socialist party?
              Moreover, the current state of environmental protection in the country as a whole does not offer much reassurance, according to a recent study by a network of 20 non-governmental organisations called ARA, which analysed loss of biodiversity, pollution, management of solid waste, impacts of oil extraction, management of water resources, management of protected areas and global climate change.[liv]

              Summarizing the impacts of current oil extraction in the country, the report concluded that: “the fact that the Venezuelan government has access to extraordinary economic resources and the persistence of an economy based on the existence of overly cheap fuels, have created a culture where waste, uncontrolled consumption, the devaluation of nature and a lack of foresight, are having intense impacts on the country, including air, soil and water pollution, huge volumes of solid waste, and the waste of energy and resources.”

              Sometimes its good to have a party organization with an apparatus. The ARA report of 2011 is in spanish (sensibly), you can find it there.

              •  Is Chavez Venezuela's only resident? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                marsanges

                and is Venezuela's current situation permanent?

                "On the sidewalk the people are hustling and bustling/ They ain't got no time so they think on the thing/ That will fill in the space in between birth and death" -- Donovan Leitch

                by Cassiodorus on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 08:05:29 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

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