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View Diary: Mr. Turtle cluelessly clamors for debt limit debate that President Obama says he won't get (213 comments)

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  •  That's the debt ceiling. And your democrats. (0+ / 0-)

    No ratings agency has ever called into doubt the ability to pay except during the debt ceiling debacle.  

    I'm not really sure when DK became the roost for deficit hawks and spooky stories about bond vigilantes.  About December 28, wasn't it?

    My question is, how are you going to switch gears when the republicans call for spending cuts and you've already conceded that fighthing the debt is the biggest priority?   This isn't just some meme or framing: this is a big ass principle that you just locked yourself into, against all economic sense.

    But the White House was bluffing. They were never going to go over the cliff because they were afraid of it
    They were all afraid of it, for good reason.  Unlike the new DK common wisdom, austerian policies at this time are disasterous.

    I'm still waiting to hear how the democrats on the hill who are unwilling to even discuss taxes in the upcoming battle would have become stronger once we went over the cliff.  It goes against all reason: unlike some republicans who adhere to the austerian nonsense, democrats by and large agree with me and think that sacrificing the economy for the sake of budgeting is backwards.  

    One piece of free advice to the GOP: Drop the culture wars, explicitly.

    by Inland on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 08:28:55 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You're misreading my point entirely. (6+ / 0-)

      We, especially us front pagers, aren't making this point because we care about the deficit. We do not. We do not at all. The problem for us is that the President does. I mean, if you can find me some statements that he doesn't, then I will rest easy. But he doesn't. He constantly says, and shows by his actions, that he feels the deficit is important and wants to get something done. But he wont do it by himself...he wants the Republicans to do it with him.

      So it isn't us that care about debt and deficits. Trust me...if he came out Bush style and said "deficits don't matter" i'd be saying he's playing this very well! But he doesn't. He says so himself. Unless you think he's lying, in which case I'd need proof. I take him at his word. He says repeatedly he wants to do it. I don't understand why we shouldn't believe him. He's frozen government pay for years. He's, by his own words, put on the table cuts to important Democratic priorities. He's even cut spending by a trillion bucks already!

      So therefore, what we want is for people who care about Democratic priorities (not just the president himself), to have as much leverage as possible against Obama and the Republicans determination to cut things we hold dear. And for us, that means having the maximum amount of revenue means a smaller deficit problem to fix in the first place. Which means less damaging cuts to things we care about. We don't care about Obama personally.

      So in this deal, we're getting $600 billion in revenue...that's great if we knew we were getting $600 billion in cuts. But we aren't. We don't know how much cuts we're getting. And in light of the fact that last year Obama gave away $1 trillion in non entitlement cuts with no revenues at all, we figure we are already $400 billion down. Get it?

      •  Every O statement about deficits is re: future. (1+ / 0-)
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        Vote4Obamain2012

        Every statement he makes about deficits and spending are cast as matters to think about now for future enactment.

        Which is good economics; just a few years ago, democrats were patting themselves on the back for running surpluses during good times.  

        O, on the other hand, keeps putting spending suggestions, "investment", and tax cuts front and center RIGHT NOW.

        If you've missed that, you've missed the difference between austerian economics and the stuff that's helped the economy immensely.  

        And franly, I'm a little put off about you complaining about non entitlement cuts.  If you were consistent, you would be cheering them as saving entitlements.  Or at least tell us what's so great about the non entitlement spending that was cut, if you aren't a Keynesian; what exactly did we "give away"?  For my position, winding down a war was the best cut one could have.

        And for us, that means having the maximum amount of revenue means a smaller deficit problem to fix in the first place.
        You can't maximize revenue by raising taxes in a recession or economic slowdown.  Obama understands that.  Krugman has on his blog lots of discussion on the portion of the deficit will be cured just by higher revenues caused by economic growth.  I commend them to your reading, along with his bits on bond vigilantes that never show up.

        One piece of free advice to the GOP: Drop the culture wars, explicitly.

        by Inland on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 08:53:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  We aren't in good times. (4+ / 0-)

          These times suck balls. So why are we talking about deficits rather than economic growth?

          I'll tell you why...because the deficit is what the president wants to talk about.

          Every statement he makes about deficits and spending are cast as matters to think about now for future enactment.
          No they aren't. They are matters he talks about in the context of a Grand Bargain that is mainly a recepie of spending cuts and tax increases. I mean...that's what he himself talks about not for some future president to do but for he himself to do. He, very understandably, doesn't want to leave his successor with a big ole box of deficits on his desk, limiting policy options.
          O, on the other hand, keeps putting spending suggestions, "investment", and tax cuts front and center RIGHT NOW.
          But these aren't meaningful things which counterbalance the entitlement cuts. For example, he called for $50 billion in infrastructure spending. Now you and I both know that is a pittance. It is pissing in the wind. But at the same time, chained CPI, which he's also called for, is $112 billion! So...umm...its not investment if you're taking out more than you're putting in.

          Finally, nobody here is doing anything about economic growth, which is, obviously, too slow and too weak. Because if we really wanted to be talking about growth, we wouldn't be talking about tax cuts and deficits as the president is. We'd be talking about serious stimulative measures that would have a real impact. But we aren't. Why? Because we're told we can't afford it. Because of the deficit.

          •  Because the fed gov is behind every cycle. (0+ / 0-)

            Do you really think we passed and applied the stimulus in a timely manner?  Don't you wish we had, like some nations do, a standing plan for economic stimulus?

            It's not too early tI plan. It IS too early for ending stimulus.

            As for stimulus, if you say nobody is talking about it, why don't you?  Answer: you're committed to austerity right now.  So how can you complain?

            One piece of free advice to the GOP: Drop the culture wars, explicitly.

            by Inland on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 10:55:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

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