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View Diary: Are any bills being contemplated that address the education/mental illness/ gun linkages? (111 comments)

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  •  Blah blah blah. (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not asking whether they are "in a position to".

    That much is clear, yes they are.

    I'm asking why you could ever think they'd be able to understand that there is a need to "engage with X". There's no evidence that they ever understand when to do this, when it might be needed.

    The ability to take action is not the ability to know when to take action.

    •  It isn't clear what you are saying (4+ / 0-)

      Are you saying you don't believe teachers are competent to assess students in terms of classroom behavior and engagement in lessons?

      That seems a sweeping sort of cynicism.  

      hope that the idiots who have no constructive and creative solutions but only look to tear down will not win the day.

      by Stuart Heady on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 09:06:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Uh. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kaminpdx

        Psychiatrists have trouble telling which students are in need of "engagement" or whatever you want to call it. These are people with medical degrees and a high level of expertise in the subject.

        We're talking about mental health. Not whether the teacher can tell little Joey needs more help reading.

        You said this:

        Early onset of beginning symptoms may start to show around the middle school to high school time frame.  Not always, but most of the time.  Teachers can see this happening because they spend the entire day with students working on learning tasks.  

        One problem seems to be that teachers who tell parents that their kid may be showing signs of mental illness tend to get punished for it.  This is really not good news and no parent wants to hear this.  It is understandable that people would have strong reaction.

        Teachers are wholly unqualified to do this. They can't tell the difference between the 1-3 teenagers who do this per year, and the other million that act just the same but eventually grow out of it without any intervention.

        If you set them up to bale those million children as "potential spree killers" the only thing you'll be doing is ruining the lives of hundreds of thousands of teens who already have a hard time of it.

        This is a completely fucked up policy proposal. It's illogical, doesn't solve the problem it purports to solve, and will cause great harm to those who are completely innocent.

        •  If you see them every day.. (5+ / 0-)

          you can tell when something is up. Its better methodology than a professional psychologist. Heck, they even ask teachers to fill out evaluation forms for kids who have suddenly changed. We are in a position to know, because its obvious to anyone who is a human being. Even you would be able to tell if a kid was having emotional difficulties in class, and had changed. Its not that hard. Really.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 10:11:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "Something's up" (0+ / 0-)

            Is always happening. They're teenagers.

            However, you're not trying to discover something's up. You're trying to pick out the ones that will be trouble if left to their own devices.

            •  Well, maybe some people can't tell. (2+ / 0-)

              I can tell. Better than a psych or a counselor. They want to tell us.. that is another feature of teenagerhood. They want us to know if something is up, so we can stop them, or chat about it, or find out if its good or bad. They want to spill the beans. You have to understand that about teenage psychology. They are not enemies, they are just feeling left out.

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Thu Jan 03, 2013 at 10:49:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're missing the point. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DarkLadyNyara

                I am aware that teenagers almost always have something going on. And yes, you don't have to be psychic to tell this is so. Being within 500 yards of them is often enough.

                However, there are millions like that. And very few if any will turn into a spree killer if left to themselves. Just a handful in a calendar year, it would seem.

                You can't tell the difference between normal teenage "something's going on" and "just about to snap and shoot 20 kindergarteners in a few years".

                So, if you're intervening to protect against the latter, you risk -- no, scratch that, you guarantee smearing all the rest that weren't going to go on a killing spree. That's bad.

                Unless you gear the policy so that it's not about preventing spree killers at all... at which point it's just feel-good-fuzzy-bullshit that's a solution in search of a problem.

                This isn't something you can handwave away. It's a serious flaw that makes such a policy fundamentally unviable.

                •  Intelligent Adults who are backed up (3+ / 0-)

                  by the society and culture to be viewed as competent are, like competent judges, competent legislators, competent police officers, competent health care workers, competent hardware store owners the key to every sucess we have.

                  At the moment, and I mean since the BornAgain(tm) movement and  since the Reagan TrickelDown(tm) Revolution, we have been promoting the incompetent. Incompetent economists, psychologists, administrators, banksters and yes, teachers have broken the faith the American public had in their own professional class.

                  That is a TeaParty article of faith. Break public confidence in competent adults. Then the incompetent may fill the gap with selfish and myopic but profitable people and policies. Strip mine the public good will for profit.

                  I am sincerely hoping you have not sipped their KoolAid.

                  Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                  by OregonOak on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 05:46:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  No, I don't drink Koolaid. (0+ / 0-)

                    But I do recognize logical fallacies when I see them.

                    You don't know what you're talking about, and when I try to explain it as simply as possible, you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "la la la I can't hear you la la la" and ignore me.

                    This isn't a problem of "backup". By the time "competent judges" are involved, you've already ruined the kids life.  I know damn well that while only three kids will go apeshit next year and do a school shooting, there will be many more than three going before "competent judges".

                    So even if you do get the right three, all the rest, all those in excess of that... you've just labeled them "potential spree killer" for no good reason.

                    This will ruin their lives. It will be a label they cannot shake.

                    And if you're honest, you'll also realize that you didn't even get the three that would go on that year to become spree killers.

                    •  If you have competent adults in public schools, (0+ / 0-)

                      law enforcement, churches, social services, neighborhoods, community centers, there will be almost no need for competent judges. Good to have them there too, but the point is PREVENTION. Social systems which function. Jobs for kids. Adults who care and are willing to risk their lives for kids.

                      And the public has to trust that we know what we are doing. If they dont, the Teahadists win by making people mistrust the public effort and the public sector.

                      May I ask where you live? Are there enough comptent adults in your community? What is going on there?

                      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                      by OregonOak on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 07:15:56 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

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