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View Diary: Gingrich says Republicans will 'cave' on their 'dead loser' debt limit bluff (177 comments)

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  •  Interesting. When the House brought a clean debt (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sneakers563, Radical Moderate, Cedwyn

    ceiling bill to the floor for a vote in May 2011, it failed. Big time. 318-97.

    In the vote, 236 Republicans and [82] Democrats opposed the debt ceiling increase, while 97 Democrats voted in favor of raising the limit without conditions. Seven Democrats voted “present.”
    Six didn't vote at all. http://clerk.house.gov/...

    http://p.washingtontimes.com/...

    So, you were saying?

    •  And this caused us to default on the debt how? (4+ / 0-)

      Pols do this all the time, angling for amendments they want, but having no intention to not vote for the final bill. Are you telling me that if, after a series of preliminary bills and amendments, a final vote is put before the house that, if it fails, will lead to the US defaulting on its debt, there will be even ONE Dem who will vote against it, knowing that it would doom them politically (not to mention being the most irresponsible thing they've ever done in congress)?

      Which Dem? Name just one who is on record as wanting or being ok with us defaulting on our debt? Just ONE.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 08:57:40 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  What are you even talking about? What I said was (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cambridgemac

        that there are not 17 House GOP members who would sign the "clean raise" discharge petition that Jacoby Jonze envisions--that not even all Democrats would sign it. How do I know? Republicans and plenty of Democrats have a demonstrated recent history of not voting for the very bill that the envisioned discharge petition is supposed to bring to the floor for a vote. There were no amendments. There were no preliminary bills. It was a straight forward bill to raise the debt ceiling and 82 Democrats and all republicans voted Nay. What has changed now to make them (Rs & Ds) vote differently on a clean raise?

        And, by the way, at the time they voted Nay on 5/31/11, we had supposedly already hit the debt limit on 5/16/11. http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/...

        You want a list of the names of the 82 Democrats who voted against a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling? Here http://clerk.house.gov/....

        •  I am talking about how the process works (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Aquarius40

          The clean bill was an initial bill, not the final bill. They do this every time to get a sense of what the baseline is before tossing in all sorts of amendments. That this or that person voted against a preliminary bill doesn't mean that they won't or didn't vote for the final bill. That's how legislation is made. How the vote went on a preliminary bill is meaningless. It's who votes for the final bill. And I guarantee you that no Dem (ok, maybe a few jerks like Cooper) will vote against any final bill to avert defaulting on the debt if it doesn't include major cuts to entitlements AND their votes are needed, which is all but certain given that most Repubs will vote against it. Now, a bill that includes major cuts to entitlements, that I can see lots of Dems voting against, and rightfully so. But I doubt that such a bill will be the final bill.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 09:33:10 AM PST

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          •  Gotcha. But what I thought Jacoby was talking (0+ / 0-)

            about that I responded to was bringing up a discharge petition to bring a clean bill to the floor for a vote and we'd get at least 17 republicans to vote for it. My point was that I don't think we would. Whether he meant for the petition to be for the final bill or not, I don't know. But even if it were, I don't believe we'd get any republicans and certainly not all Democrats to vote for a clean bill as the final one...hey, maybe that's the plan of action! Woah, that would be deep and would certainly make a bunch of people nervous. Democrats holding on til the end?? Hmmm.

            •  I have to disagree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SilentBrook

              Most likely Boehner will bring a bill to the floor that has enough support to pass rather than risk the humiliation of an end run via discharge. But I believe that if it came to it, the votes for it are there. There are still just enough non-crazy Repubs to make it happen. Perhaps this silly delay on the Sandy relief bill vote was a setup for that, to give NE Repubs a plausible excuse to "betray" Boehner. Don't discount the role of kabuki in this.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 10:09:08 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  Not to bust on your documentation... (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wwjjd

      ... but please don't ask me to click through to the Moonie Times.  That rag give me hives.  ;-)

      •  Oh, I understand. I had to shower after reading it (0+ / 0-)

        but it was the first one I could find that had Steny Hoyer's weak, self-preserving excuse for why he was for the clean bill even though he voted against it.

    •  I just took a look (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wwjjd, SilentBrook

      at the Wiki page for the  Budget Control Act of 2011 that raised the debt ceiling. Here's the final vote in the house:

      The House passed the Budget Control Act[1] on August 1, 2011 by a vote of 269–161. 174 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted for it, while 66 Republicans and 95 Democrats voted against it.
      So you're right, there's a precedent for this. But note the GOP breakdown, 174 for and 66 against. I don't expect there to be anywhere near this many for any debt ceiling bill that doesn't include major cuts to entitlements. Unless Obama caves, they're going to need lots of Dems, nearly all of them most likely. Pelosi will likely try to get unanimity to support Obama, and she'll likely get it.

      Ok, that asshole Jim Cooper and maybe a couple of other deficit scolds might vote against it. You got me there.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 09:08:41 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How do we game this out? We shouldn't negotiate (0+ / 0-)

        over the debt ceiling at all. But we have weak Democrats, like Steny Hoyer, who are afraid to vote for a clean hike because the vote will be used against them in the next election. Maybe, not likely, the WH takes some action on their own so Dems don't have to vote on the debt ceiling. Regardless, I don't want Democrats voting for any bill that cuts SS, Medicare, or Medicaid benefits in any way...to hell with what the President or VP may eventually negotiate. So, absent the WH doing something on its own what are we left with? Some straight bull!

        Anyway, thanks. It's been great going back re-reading the foolishness of 2011. :-(

        •  I say enough of this love affair (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cambridgemac, slinkerwink

          that centrist Dems like Hoyer & Obama have been having with centrist voters over fiscal issues, since they represent relatively few true swing votes as most of them vote GOP no matter what, and passing conservative bills to cater to them not only doesn't work and isn't necessary politically, but results in awful policies and loses them much more support on the left than they gain in the center, 2010 being a classic and tragic example.

          Triangulation has been a colossal failure and we need to abandon it. To hell with those illusory centrist voters. They're not worth the bother. Dems win or lose depending on how progressive they are.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 09:48:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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