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View Diary: Chuck Hagel to be nominated for secretary of defense (381 comments)

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  •  So what? (9+ / 0-)

    Who cares if it's good enough for the right wing's favorite homo?  The war in Iraq was good enough for Little Roy as well.  Andrew Sullivan does not represent or speak for the LGBT community.  He never has.

    "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

    by FogCityJohn on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:48:04 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  He's a very reaonable voice, (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      renewables

      and I value his take more than yours.

      •  A reasonable voice? Are you serious? (10+ / 0-)

        He called opponents of the Iraq invasion a "fifth column."  He's been a Republican most of his life. When he was editor of TNR, he published Charles Murray's racist "Bell Curve" bullshit.  

        If you think a guy like that is reasonable, then I don't know what you're doing on a Democratic site.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:01:16 PM PST

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        •  He's every straight person's favorite homo (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FogCityJohn, drsampson

          Good ol' Castle Catholic Andrew's been milking it like that his whole life.

          "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

          by Shane Hensinger on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:06:58 PM PST

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          •  Why are you guys calling him (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            radv005

            a homo? Is part of the reason you dislike him because he's gay? I just don't understand why we even have to refer to his sexuality in discussing a very accomplished and dignified man.

            •  Because I'm gay and we often refer to one another (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sfbob, Scott Wooledge

              in that manner - that's why.

              "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

              by Shane Hensinger on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:17:36 PM PST

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              •  You know, now I am starting to (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                jplanner

                wonder if I've wandered into a conversation for which I am too straight to understand what you guys are saying. So I'm just going to shut up.

                •  Maybe it is a little internecine TBH (4+ / 0-)

                  There's not a little resentment on the part of many GLBT people over those who claim to speak on behalf of the entire community - whether implied or explicit.

                  Personally I don't like Andrew because he justified, for the longest time, the British oppression of nationalist people in the North of Ireland. He served as what we call a "Castle Catholic," which is a monarchist Catholic who knows where his bread is buttered and will happily climb over the backs of his fellow compatriots to get what he wants. He provided a grimy intellectual veneer to a terrible campaign of collusion and oppression for a long period of time and he was happy to do it as long as it gave him a leg up.

                  "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

                  by Shane Hensinger on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:28:47 PM PST

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                •  Well, that you think Andrew Sullivan (5+ / 0-)

                  speaks for gay people does indicate that you are too straight for the conversation you've wandered into. (Hint: He's not popular with gay people.)

                  "The marriage fight is over when we say it's over, and it's over when we win."—Dan Savage

                  by Scott Wooledge on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:41:33 PM PST

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                  •  Yes I realize that. I had no idea he was (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    craigkg, Ottoe

                    unpopular with gay people, I knew he is unpopular with the homophobes. I would think there would be more rallying around him, since as a prominent openly gay person he already has to deal with all the hate that's out there.

                    •  We don't rally around tokens. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      craigkg

                      Andrew Sullivan has about as much credibility among LGBTs as Clarence Thomas does among African-Americans.  Sullivan owes his position to the fact that he happens to be a gay man who willingly spouts the kind of conservative BS you typically find on Fox News.  For a long time, he was the only gay person you ever saw on television, even though his views were far to the right of most of us in the LGBT community.  

                      The MSM loved him, because they could point to him and say, "See, here's a gay person who agrees with the right wing conventional wisdom!"  He was a token they were using as cover for their own homophobia.

                      So no, most of us are not about to rally around him.  And as someone who actually knew him personally at one point, I can assure you he is no more appealing a human being in person than he is on the teeveee.

                      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

                      by FogCityJohn on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 05:16:28 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

            •  Oh, please. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sfbob, Scott Wooledge, craigkg

              The only reason you brought Sullivan up is because he's gay.  You were using the common derailing tactic of "well, someone in the [insert marginalized group at issue] disagrees."  

              And it'd be really funny if I, a gay man, disliked Sullivan because he's gay.  So you can spare me the faux indignation.

              "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

              by FogCityJohn on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:22:20 PM PST

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          •  Please. Not every straight person's. n/t (4+ / 0-)

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 06:37:21 PM PST

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        •  He's accomplished a fuckload more (0+ / 0-)

          For progressivism than any of us here. He's awesome, and his followers are loyal, liberal intellectuals (and Catholics). He's totally liberal, and if you don't think he leans left than you are just not being honest with us. He may be to your right, but that does not mean he's not on our side.

          •  He's certainly good at sucking up (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FogCityJohn, Scott Wooledge

            Something he no doubt became quite good at while navigating the treacherous shoals of English society while being both Catholic and openly gay. Maybe that's what fed into his life-long hatred of nationalist people in the North of Ireland who dared to question their oppression at the hands of the British state. Why couldn't they just be good little Castle Catholics like him?

            "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

            by Shane Hensinger on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:21:33 PM PST

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          •  People who support racism aren't liberal. (6+ / 0-)

            Okay?  Got that?  And people who called those of us who opposed a trumped up, unjust war traitors aren't liberal either.

            "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

            by FogCityJohn on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:24:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  From Sullivan's own mouth in 2009: (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FogCityJohn
            I think of myself as a conservative, yes. And I think actually, at this point, Obama represents more conservatism than the Southern populism of the GOP.

            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

            by Meteor Blades on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 06:41:50 PM PST

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            •  He's now completely left of center. (0+ / 0-)

              He thinks Iraq was a huge lie and debacle as much as any of us and is remorseful for his prior position. He's pro-choice, for cutting defense, against cutting social programs, against racism, against the tea party, fox, and virtually all republicans.

              Come on, what must he do to show his love? I think he's almost always progressive and does a great job writing in a style that convinces other former conservatives to come on over.

      •  Right. He called those of us who opposed... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        ...the Iraq war when he was gung-ho for it a "fifth column" — that is, traitors. And we know what happens to traitors in war time. Reasonable, my ass.

        Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

        by Meteor Blades on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 06:36:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Some Hawks, including Sullivan (0+ / 0-)

      have learned their lesson.
      Unfortunately, blood and treasure was lost due to this awful choice.
      Though, I doubt Sullivan's opinion held a lot of sway with LBTG community regarding the war--or too many others.

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