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View Diary: Did U.S. just implement more severe austerity measures than Great Britain? A quick response (118 comments)

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  •  You too mate (22+ / 0-)

    I'm glad you posted your diary, which I duly recced, for conversation purposes.

    Great to debate this stuff.

    And kudos for caring in the first place. Happy New Year.

    The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

    by Brit on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:12:49 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I'm really sincere when I state that I just... (9+ / 0-)

      ...don't know enough about the economy of Great Britain to even feel comfortable debating it. Hell, when I even mention it, I'm only reporting what others, far more knowledgeable than yours truly, are stating. And, in this instance--as in the case of many other instances--I'm seeking discussion.

      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

      by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:32:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No problem (14+ / 0-)

        I'm just bringing some perspective from this side of the pond which makes the analogy (made by others) a little far fetched.

        The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

        by Brit on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:35:20 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You're saying the Dayen and Plumer are... (11+ / 0-)

          ..far-fetched? I would say that the austerity effort in the U.S. is 2 or 3 years behind what's going on in Great Britain, and comparing the two, at least at any level greater than what folks like Dayen and Plumer are doing, sells the conversation short, and it makes the entire discussion prone to far too much subjectivity and mental masturbation.

          For starters, we can only guess how the politics are going to play out in the future. It would also appear that the effort from the right, here in the U.S., is far more stealthier. Additionally, there's the entire issue of Citizens United, and how unlimited financing will affect the lobbying and the media effort on both sides of this effort.

          Far too many unknowns! IMHO...

          "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

          by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:43:01 PM PST

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          •  Exactly my point (13+ / 0-)

            So many unknowns, you have to really stretch even to make the UK analogy.

            In the meantime, the IMF have wisened up. As you'll see in my update, they now admit they got the multiplier wrong when they recommended austerity three years ago

            IMF Officials: We Were Wrong About Austerity

            http://www.bloomberg.com/...

            The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

            by Brit on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 03:46:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You REALLY need to read the first few... (7+ / 0-)

              ...paragraphs of THIS: "Now Playing In Europe: Wall Street Backdoor Bailout Redux," at least as far as Stiglitz' sentiments relating to the IMF are concerned. The entire kabuki with the IMF, no matter WHERE on the globe they are involved, is all about the banks' interest, nothing more and nothing less. (At least as far as Stiglitz' sentiments are concerned; and, in my book, the guy has more credibility on economics than anyone else on the planet.)

              Your REALLY should read the linked text...at least the first four or five paragraphs!

              "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

              by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:07:05 PM PST

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              •  I'm no fan of the IMF, Bob (16+ / 0-)

                And I agree with Stiglitz on that, and most things.

                But now even they have had to admit their austerity packages were based on a faulty calculation of the multiplier. They thought private spending would only decline by 50 percent of any government spending cut/tax rise. It now turns out they were wrong a factor of three.  

                The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

                by Brit on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:12:12 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  And, that's what's so incredibly... (8+ / 0-)

                  ...fucked up about what's transpiring here in the U.S., as far as all of this is concerned.

                  There are EXCEPTIONALLY powerful, wealthy forces at work, (sometimes not so) behind the scenes, that have totally captured Washington.

                  This is being steamrolled on the public despite the greater truth that common wisdom is austerity DOESN'T WORK!

                  It's really quite incredible, frankly. Then again, when one understands just how complete the status quo's stranglehold is upon our government (here in the U.S.--and in my opinion it's miles beyond the public's impression/understanding as far as the severity of the matter's concerned), at the end of the day, it's really quite scary.

                  It's not just the Republicans that don't give a shit. Frankly, there are a lot of Democrats--and more importantly there are a lot of huge corporations and banks--that are solely interested in their own best interests, to the point where it doesn't matter whether the public lives or dies. (And, that's much closer to the truth than it is to any hyperbole.)

                  And, yes, IMHO, it really is that bad. (But, most in our country don't realize that it's really that far gone. But, IMHO, and in my own experience, I can tell you--firsthand--you that it is.)

                  "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                  by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:22:41 PM PST

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                  •  From what I've seen... (6+ / 0-)

                    ...much of this "transformation" is already set in stone...the truth is that what's playing out now is much more related to public relations efforts, event management and timing issues.

                    There are a lot of very naive folks in the blogosphere; and there are still many idealists, even in Washington.

                    But, this (the 99%'s) goose is cooked. It's just a question of when it's going to be served.

                    (You want fries with that?)

                    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                    by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:28:05 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  One more VERY important and pertinent point... (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Brit, 3goldens, zaka1, basquebob, elwior

                  ...Dayen and Plumer are referencing one, quantifiable metric.  G.D.P. Not much more, and not much less.

                  But, as I've stated it--and with regard to an area of economics where Stiglitz is at the forefront of this topic--scores of times in this community, in diaries and in comments, the entire concept (and dependency upon...by all of those "very serious people") of that quantifiable metric (GDP) is extremely flawed.

                  But, it is, arguably, THE most important metric used in modern-day American (and to a great extent, in many countries in Europe) economics.

                  So, again, Dayen and Plumer take that metric and run with it, because it's all they've/we've got.

                  But, it doesn't even begin to address the underlying story...anywhere.

                  And, addressing the underlying story is something that requires MANY volumes of analyses and, dare I say it, tens of thousands of pages.

                  So, again, "debating" about it--especially in a place such as here--is really a non-issue.

                  But, like so many economists, when there is a discussion about this type of thing--to many of them--GDP is all that matters.

                  And, to them, all of the other stats and qualitative issues simply do not matter, at all. (And, this has been a subject of great criticism by yours truly, within this community, for many years, too!)

                  So, have fun with that subject tonight...because there's really no other place to take the discussion.

                  "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                  by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 05:03:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  That's what I don't get. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bobswern, ferg, zaka1, chuckvw

            We should be appreciative of people trying to measure what's going on here now, and doing their best to warn of possible ramifications using examples. Arguing numbers or angle or whatever is perfectly defendable, but refuting this by comparing the measure of what we're doing now and the examples already done side by defies logic.

            It seems to me - and I truly could be wrong - that the fire of this diary comes mostly from the furnace of the pro- and anti-fiscal deal fights here on DKos.

            •  Interesting point-of-view... n/t (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              zaka1

              "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

              by bobswern on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:08:03 PM PST

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            •  You are wrong (4+ / 0-)

              ...about the fiscal fight. I've been making these comparison's between the two administrations for over three years.

              Will dig up links if you like

              The Fall of the House of Murdoch -with Eric Lewis and all the latest Leveson evidence out now!

              by Brit on Fri Jan 04, 2013 at 04:58:16 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  No that's alright. I said I could be wrong. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Brit, bobswern

                Mystified, Brit. I did not expect this fight. I came in with a very gentle "Now hold on a sec" to point out - well, you know what I pointed out. And bobswern and several others made the same point. Mystified that you didn't just go, "Oh, yeah, good point, but..." or something along those lines.

              •  From a new comment down below (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                chuckvw, bobswern
                Hey, look (0+ / 0-)
                just because your austerity is worse doesn't mean I want to start down the same road.
                This speaks very well to another part of what mystifies me about your response in general. The article you are being very strongly critical here is putting up warning flags. I just don't get your overall objection, and especially the vehemence behind it.
                •  Have you ever seen the Jerry Springer Show? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Little

                  Everyone loves a pie fight! Guaranteed audience draw...even when there's no pie fight to be had.

                  "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                  by bobswern on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 06:10:45 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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