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  •  I respect your moral clarity in walking... grover (12+ / 0-)

    Today, I don't think ANYONE can still remain in the rc xch without giving tacit approval by their membership, to the system's pervasive and utter corruption.

    You, grover, realized that and removed your support for them.  Good for you and glad you found a sane and welcoming place for you.

    Respectfully to those who STILL remain in the rc xch
    you are enabling and supporting a very sick and evil system.  To say that it is all happening "in Rome" and your parish is great, blah, blah, blah, is missing the point.

    Your membership is propping up an evil system pure and simple.

    We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

    by SeaTurtle on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 01:14:22 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  It was pretty clear to us. (16+ / 0-)

      Our archbishop said that those of us who were planning to vote for pro-choice candidates (he was referring to John Kerry) should reconsider receiving communion.

      Ok, well first, I had voted for pro-choice candidates all my life, but it was suddenly a sin? And after the election? Was I supposed to confess and seek forgiveness  for something I did not regret and would certainly do again?

      My husband and I both lifelong Catholics, couldn't reconcile this.

      So we walked away. The witch hunt for gay seminarians shortly thereafter as some sort of "cure" for pedophiia in the Roman Catholic Church confirmed for us we'd never return.

      I don't judge those who stay for family, faith or other reasons. It's not my place to judge what others do wrt to their faith,  but I do call them out for saying they don't support their diocese and Rome. Every dollar in the collection plate supports the diocese and Rome. They are lying to themselves if they think otherwise.

      © grover


      So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

      by grover on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 01:29:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  YUP, (8+ / 0-)
        I don't judge those who stay for family, faith or other reasons. It's not my place to judge what others do wrt to their faith,  but I do call them out for saying they don't support their diocese and Rome. Every dollar in the collection plate supports the diocese and Rome. They are lying to themselves if they think otherwise.
        I have thought long and hard on this, and though I know many fine roman catholics, religious, etc.... weighing it all, to me it has reached the point that staying in, without, as you say, denouncing rome, to me that is morally wrong.

        The rc system is so, so sick and corrupt; mind bogglingly so... that I cannot believe that droves of people are not leaving.  I fear that those who stay are in fact becoming cult members, because people have to suspend logic and just follow obediently.  That is not religion, that is cult.

        You have quite a story to tell.  Maybe one day you will write a diary about it?

        We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

        by SeaTurtle on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 01:43:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I have come, painfully, to the same conclusion: (5+ / 0-)
      Today, I don't think ANYONE can still remain in the rc xch without giving tacit approval by their membership, to the system's pervasive and utter corruption.
      I personally left a long time ago, but there is significant good tragically emeshed in this essentially corrupt enterprise; I could be tempted to hope in the days of Vatican II....but no more.  

      Almost nothing has a name.

      by johanus on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 01:56:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yet there are very progressive people of good (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle, JayRaye, LSophia, Siri

      will who remain in the Church even while being extremely outspoken in their criticism of the sickness of the hierarchy -- e.g., Dan Berrigan,  Gary Wills, Charlie Pierce, many people associated with the Catholic Worker & Catholic Peace Fellowship (CPF) and my 80-ish Sister of Charity cousin, who can say things to my Republican brother with few repercussions that end up getting us thrown out of restaurants (literally) if I say them to him.

                 Having had 16 years of Catholic education and then worked/taught for 5 years for Catholic organizations (including the CPF), I can understand intellectually the position of those who stay in the Church despite its often hideous violations of Christ's message.  But emotionally I don't see how they tolerate it.  Then again, I left 40+ years ago, not long after Paul VI issued his idiotic birth control encyclical in the midst of his efforts to eliminate from the Church as many of the reforms of Vatican II.  The irony is that the basis of my decision was what I had been taught by my excellent Jesuit theology & philosophy teachers in college, all of whom are still priests as far as I know.

      •  well, OG, these people will say they are staying (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JayRaye, LSophia

        for community and sacrament. And to reform it from within.  Or at least that is what they have said to me.

        However, I believe a tipping point has been reached.  The system has become so utterly corrupt, with its prime goal being power and money (preservation and making of..... see Vatican finances, if you doubt.)  And obedience to the hierarchy and their political and cultural views is demanded.  This is cult like behavior.

        This structure is so decayed that I believe it can't be rebuilt.  People should leave and reject the threats of sin, hell, excommunication, etc in the faces of these religious fraudsters, and find the freedom to disobey them and start anew.

        Why haven't they (Berrigan, et al,) broken from Rome and formed the American Catholic Church?  This current church is not worth saving, and more importantly, in my opinion, able to be saved.

        We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

        by SeaTurtle on Sat Jan 05, 2013 at 03:44:05 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  My "tipping point" was 40+ years ago, but people (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia

          like Berrigan, Wills, and Pierce evidently believe in the "truth" behind the corrupt human institution -- after all, it's not like the Renaissance church wasn't just as bad.  Wills & Pierce are extremely vocal -- not to say abusively caustic -- about the hierarchy; and Berrigan's example as a "witness" for years made the American hierarchy apoplectic and, as far as I can tell, he's still an ostracized black sherp.  I suppose I admire -- or maybe "wonder at" would be more accurate -- their tenacity and faith, even if I don't share the latter.  

        •  The Catholic church lost its reason for existence (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia

          when it refused to carry out the reforms that Luther called for. Instead, it gave Europe decades of devastating religious wars.

          •  imo, it took the blue pill (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Alexandre

            when Constatine made it an imperial religion.

            Various reform efforts to change that have been mercilessly put down.  Such as Luther's.

            We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

            by SeaTurtle on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:32:12 AM PST

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            •  Well, if it wasn't for Constantine, Christianity (0+ / 0-)

              might not have survived. It would certainly be different, since there were all kinds of heterodox sects at the time.

              What I don't understand is why the church hierarchy decided to choose reaction over following the liberal course it had started on with Vatican 2. Internal corruption, I suppose.

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