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View Diary: What is it about Guns? (45 comments)

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  •  Well most of those 80 are suicides (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    theboz, oldpunk

    after you ask yourself "why?" on them figure out where the rest of the dead are and you'll get more of an answer. Until you answer your own question you'll get nowhere.

    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

    by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 01:20:02 PM PST

    •  Do you have proof of this or are you just stalling (2+ / 0-)

      until KVoimakas, PavePusher, theatre goon, Tom Seaview, kestrel9000 and the rest get here?

      **Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behavior does** h/t Clytemnestra/Victoria Jackson

      by glorificus on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 01:48:40 PM PST

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    •  Let's accept that.. most are suicide. (2+ / 0-)

      Does it matter? Or will you contend that these people will merely "find another way" if you regulate weapons?

      Interested in why you think suicide is a special case of weapons use.

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 01:56:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  look, here's the first couple paragraphs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oldpunk
        I have to ask myself again and again, "What is this fascination with guns and violence?"

        The media regularly ignore the daily death toll from guns - last I read it was something over 80 a day. That is, until it's some large chunk of that total all in one place & at one time. Then it is "missing white girls" over all the channels all the time.

        What is this?

        diarist wants to know why we ignore 80 per day, it's because most are suicides, isn't that interesting for news.

        Until people aks and answer very simple questions they're going to continue to be left wondering.

        How big is your personal carbon footprint?

        by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:14:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I accept that most gun deaths are suicides. (0+ / 0-)

          What does that mean to you? Does it argue against restrictions on certain weapons? Just curious.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:24:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Its a dodge (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OregonOak, radmul

            A diversion.  One of the commonly-wielded tools in the anti-gun control toolbox our precious little RKBA group carts around with them.

            From the 2004 presentation Trends and Rates in Methods of Suicide by Catherine Barber of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center:

            Why does gun availability matter?

            > Some suicide attempts are impulsive

            > Some occur during a crisis

            > If a gun is not available, nearly every other method substituted is less lethal

            > 90% of those who survive a nonfatal attempt do not go on to die by suicide (Owens, British J Psych, 2002; review of 90 studies of repetition of self-harm)

            >All US case control studies have indicated the presence of a gun is a risk factor for suicide

            The anti-gun control folks love to state that suicides don't count because they blithely pretend that all people who successfully commit suicide with a firearm would have done it just as readily and just as effectively and just as easily if they hadn't had access to a firearm, despite data to the contrary.  

            It's a similar dodge to pointing to the high firearm murder rate in cities such as Chicago or Washington DC.  How, they innocently and teasingly ask, is that possible when guns are so tightly regulated in those cities?

            As if those cities are islands unconnected to anywhere else in the nation with less stringent gun laws.

            I wonder: If they were to open up all the windows and doors in their house in subzero weather, would they also wonder why it's cold inside even though they have a top of the line furnace?

            •  Exactly. Its a 'shift of attention." (0+ / 0-)

              We are being asked not to care too much about suicide by gun, since, well, its self-inflicted and so therefore, victimless. Or something. They guy deserved it. Or something.

              I think its instructive that Ban Nock elected not to engage on this issue. A little push back goes a long way with these people.

              Thank you.

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 03:42:53 PM PST

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          •  It means we aren't yet ready to deal with what to (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpunk

            do to stop gun deaths. We lump them into a big category so that it can be used to make high numbers without admitting that 80 people per day represents very different occurrences. It's like the difference between a traffic accident and a heart attack. Very different things.

            Further, scary black guns are involved in almost no crimes or suicides. I'm not advocating plastic guns, it's just that demonizing a scary looking gun will do almost nothing to reduce suicide or homicide.

            We talk about things very peripheral to stopping gun death.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 04:22:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Let's say then, that a mere 30 a day (0+ / 0-)

              are "involuntary" gun deaths. Put the suicides away to humor your argument.

              You really have faith that no regulation will have an effect on those 30 per day? Or 20 even?

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:29:55 PM PST

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              •  Depends. (0+ / 0-)

                If I recall correctly it is people who have a long criminal history who are responsible for the majority of those deaths. If you have new regulations that focuses on criminal behaviour I'll listen.  

                But I don't believe that is where your interest lies. I am of the opinion that your interest in new regulation would primarily focus on people like me, people who are not inclined nor interested in committing violent acts.

                You eat a lot of acid, Miller, back in the hippie days?

                by oldpunk on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:20:07 PM PST

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                •  So your issue is really "trust" (0+ / 0-)


                  and on that, I can only assure you that as a firearms owner, I agree that there is a right to keep and bear, but not an absolute right, and the right is framed within a context of a well-regulated militia structure.

                  If you are mentally ill, or violent, or convicted of a felony, or part of a conspiracy against the government or others, your right to keep and bear is not absolute. That is how the Constitution reads. I do not see how you have a problem with that.

                  Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                  by OregonOak on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 05:07:40 AM PST

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      •  Cause suicides don't count as deaths, don't you (3+ / 0-)

        know?  People that commit suicide with a firearm should not count because the magical Second Amendment Fairy always brings them back to life!

        Seriously, why do the gun sect keep saying that suicides do not count as gun deaths?  I know their argument that they would have found a way to do it, but a certain percentage (pick your number 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, more?) will be spare and given another chance.

        For all those clamoring that suicides don't count, just ask the family of someone that committed suicide if it is?

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:55:02 PM PST

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      •  Because free people own their lives. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        oldpunk

        This includes the decision about when one's life should end.

        Basically, my life is none of your business, and yours is none of mine.

        --Shannon

        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

        by Leftie Gunner on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:05:15 PM PST

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        •  Then you are not really a Democrat (0+ / 0-)

          Because one of our core beliefs is that each other's life is critical to the success of the nation. You should just go sign up for the Rand Paul movement.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:23:52 PM PST

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          •  Absolutely. (0+ / 0-)

            But the fact that my life is critical to the success of the nation does not make my life the property of the nation. That's not liberalism, it's Communism.

            --shannon

            "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
            "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

            by Leftie Gunner on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:18:39 AM PST

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            •  It makes your life subject to the laws (0+ / 0-)

              of the nation. And those laws are meant to balance liberty of the individual with the liberty of the society. You seem to forget that second part altogether. Thats not communism, to speak of the liberties of society. It is simple democracy at work. We regulate certain individual liberties to expand the liberties of the whole.

              The only ones who throw the communism label around in my experience are the closet fascists.

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 04:10:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  True, we do restrict liberties to protect society. (0+ / 0-)

                And often this is a good thing. Taking away my liberty if I misuse it to harm another is fine.

                Taking away my liberty on the grounds that I may misuse it, especially if the only person that would be harmed is me, I have a problem with.

                Protecting people from themselves is not a proper function of government. That's true regardless of whether you're protecting them from drinking too much soda or ending their own life.

                Suicide should not be a crime. Nor should the possibility of suicide be a reason for reducing individual liberty. "It's for their own good" is an argument that will almost always lead me to oppose whatever it's being used in favor of.

                And I'd probably be a Libertarian if privte power didnt bother me as much as government power does... more, in some ways... at least with government power, you can "throw the bums out"... kinda hard to do that to a CEO.

                Just the way I'm wired, I guess.

                --Shannon

                "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                by Leftie Gunner on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 07:11:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Your view only works if you have faith (0+ / 0-)

                  that each individual is a wholly independent particle which exists by floating around independently, not influencing, not rubbing up against and not having any effect whatsoever in the beliefs and behavior of others.

                  Step back. Each individual action is one part, one vote, of the whole. If you own assault weapons, you influence perhaps tens if not hundreds of people's attitudes, beliefs and actions in some small way. Family, friends and neighbors get to listen to your justifications and perhaps your use of the weapons, and  In the aggregate, these individual actions become the ocean we all swim in.

                  I may want to believe that I am an independent particle influencing no one, but the fact is that I, and you, are not. The fact that we are here trying to influence each other is the proof that your assumption is incorrect. Libertarians exist in a world which never was and never will be. That is why we HAVE democracy; to work out the arrangements by which semi-autonomous individuals live together. To believe otherwise is an argument for totalitarian rule of the biggest and strongest force. You are arguing a completely illogical case, and the effects can be seen in Aurora, Columbine, Newtown, and 30-40 times a day in America.

                  Time to discard the Reaganite/Libertarian fantasy. It doesnt work.

                  Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                  by OregonOak on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 07:22:47 PM PST

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                  •  I assume no such thing. (0+ / 0-)

                    And, as I said, I'm not a libertarian.

                    I've got no problem with democracy... but make no mistake, democratic power is still power, with all of the pathologies of power. The history of power is such that the only way to be safe from it is to give away the absolute minimum of it that's required, and make it very difficult to give away more.

                    That's pretty much what the American system is designed to do. I'm a fan.

                    --Shannon

                    "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                    "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                    by Leftie Gunner on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 07:50:56 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You are in favor of ineffective and feckless (0+ / 0-)

                      democracy which cannot keep innocent children and elderly people safe because you extend "liberty" to plainly mentally ill people in the form of automatic military weapons. Good try, but that is not democracy, that is rule by the armed mob.

                      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                      by OregonOak on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 06:28:54 PM PST

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                      •  If they are "plainly mentally ill", (0+ / 0-)

                        Such that they are a danger to the community, then it is up to the state to prove, in an adversarial proceeding with full due process, that that is the case, before the state may deprive them of their rights.

                        Innocent until proven guilty... ring any bells?

                        --Shannon

                        "It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees." -- Emiliano Zapata Salazar
                        "Dissent is patriotic. Blind obedience is treason." --me

                        by Leftie Gunner on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 03:47:09 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Military gun ownership is actually all the proof (0+ / 0-)

                          anyone needs to prove mental illness. You do not need 10 explosive bullets to eat dinner. There is another reason gun worshipers go to such legalistic contortions to justify their addiction; they are mentally ill.

                          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                          by OregonOak on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:37:10 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

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