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View Diary: Hunter Population Jumps 9% Over 5 Years (78 comments)

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  •  I have mixed feelings about hunters. (8+ / 0-)

    I don't like sport hunting where hunters shoot for trophies and let most of the animal go to waste.

    However, I do respect those who hunt and then eat what they kill, and hunters can help keep certain animals from overpopulating an area and upsetting the ecological balance.   There is also conservationists in the ranks of hunters and it is important to have them as allies in our environmental struggles.

    I am hopeful that we as Democrats can find a way not to alienate hunters as we try to deal effectively with gun violence.   We need common-sense regulation, but we shouldn't demonize gun owners as a whole.

    Washington and Colorado said that you've got to legalize it. Hope the DOJ respects that.

    by pistolSO on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 01:38:49 PM PST

    •  Many people harbor similar misperceptions (5+ / 0-)

      if you understood hunting more it would probably help hunters.

      #1 No one allows meat to go to waste, it's a serious crime to waste meat, big fines, loss of license. Assume all edible meat is eaten.

      #2 There are other very good conservation and management reasons to hunt non edible species. If it's legal, and it's hunting, it's for a reason.

      #3 there is no ecological balance, no balance of nature, no longer taught in university ecology departments. Nature is in "flux". Man, via state wildlife departments, seeks to maintain desired population numbers of all species. Sometimes this requires no action on the part of the state, other times they use hunters or other means.

      Sometimes so called environmentalists include conservationists in their ranks. We hunters seek to not alienate them in our conservation struggles. As we are the people who pay the bills we know that groups apposed to science based conservation can be costly. Though usually well intentioned they often are emotion based and have various misperceptions as above. We've been doing this stuff for 100 years now so we are kind of used to the problems involved.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:02:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No wasted meat? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock

        I wish - it's not what you see on the range, where you come across half a carcass every now and then.  Enforcement is very difficult.

        γνωθι σεαυτόν

        by halef on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:53:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not sure how animals are killed but legally (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1

          harvested game animals must have all usable meat taken.

          Animals that die from cars or coyote don't count.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 03:06:51 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  ban nock: in Texas the feral hog is considered (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            high uintas, ban nock

            a varmint.
            I've a neighbor who fills his freezer every fall with 'em.

            I needed a deer tag real bad one night on the highway from Snyder to Big Spring ... but if you hit the deer (or it hits you) with a car, you're NOT ALLOWED to keep the meat (which makes just about as much sense as any zero tolerance policy, ever) ... even if it's in season and somebody has to come shoot the deer after the wreck.

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

            by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:51:02 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Same in Utah (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1, ban nock

              The deer goes to waste.

              "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

              by high uintas on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:10:22 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's a damn shame IMO. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ban nock, high uintas, pistolSO

                Wonder if there's any way we could get it changed so the meat at least goes to a food bank.

                LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:27:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yeah, it is (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ban nock, BlackSheep1, pistolSO

                  but regardless of what the law says, there really ARE some slobs out there killing game with little interest in using the meat.  Hopefully they're a small minority, but I do know I've personally run across carcasses (dumped illegally) with the antlers, backstraps, and nothing else removed.  That's horrible.  I've also known of people who hunt waterfowl with no intent of eating the birds who then try to give them away to anyone they can so they don't have to clean/eat them.  Then there are plenty of people who take pheasants, geese, or other larger birds and breast them out without even considering the rest of the bird because that would involve, you know, work.  

                  It's unfortunate and illegal.  I'm supportive of any hunter who uses all of the animal within reason.  Sadly, there are some bubbas out there who don't really care what happens with the animal after they've taken the shot--those people should take up golf, NASCAR, or some other damn thing where I won't run into them.  

                  Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                  by Mark Mywurtz on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 03:44:07 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There are lawbreakers in any group of people who (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BlackSheep1

                    commit acts contrary to the goals and traditions of their group. The Sierra Club member who dumps used oil onto the ground the Greenpeace donator who tosses plastic bags to end up in the mouths of whales.

                    Best to keep sight of the goals and accomplishments of the group in general such as bringing back all those animals from the brink of extinction and paying for it, the funding of all the wildlife refuges, eagles and falcons, elk and bear, the list is endless.

                    How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                    by ban nock on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 06:04:43 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I've a suspicion that a lot of venison wasted (0+ / 0-)

                      after car wrecks would be better eating than a lot of deer shot primarily for the rack.

                      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:06:57 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Here in CO you have 24 hrs to get a road kill tag (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                high uintas

                only costs $10.

                We never used to bother with the formalities.

                How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:31:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  in mo, if you hit a deer and have a hunting....... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ban nock, pistolSO

              license and deer tag you can take the meat if you use your deer tag.  so, in effect, you can hunt deer with a motor vehicle in mo.  but, you can also hunt deer with and atl atl in mo.

              •  Texas allows (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ban nock, pistolSO

                according to the game laws,, numerous methods and means of taking game. Since it's the law and public record I'll just import it here.

                Means and Methods
                Firearms

                NEW LAW: Silencers may be used to take any wildlife resource; however, all federal, state and local laws continue to apply.

                Game animals and game birds may be hunted with any legal firearm, EXCEPT:

                    white-tailed deer, mule deer, desert bighorn sheep, and pronghorn antelope may NOT be hunted with rimfire ammunition of any caliber.
                    shotguns are the only legal firearm that may be used to hunt Eastern turkey during the spring Eastern turkey season (see County Listing). Rifles and handguns may not be used to hunt Eastern turkey.
                    pellet guns and other air guns are NOT LEGAL.
                    fully automatic firearms are NOT LEGAL.
                    a shotgun is the only legal firearm for hunting migratory game birds (see Definitions - Legal Shotgun).

                Nongame Animals (Non-Protected): Any lawful firearm, pellet gun, or other air gun is legal.

                Magazine Capacity (number of shells/cartridges allowed): There are no restrictions on the number of shells or cartridges a legal firearm may hold when hunting game animals or game birds (except migratory game birds, see Legal Shotgun).

                Muzzleloader: Any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle.

                Note: A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader. Muzzleloader deer seasons are restricted to muzzleloading firearms only.

                Possession of firearms by felons: A convicted felon, regardless of where the conviction occurred, may not possess or use a firearm (as defined by Penal Code, §46.01) to hunt in this state. Under Penal Code, §46.01, a muzzleloading firearm is lawful if it is an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899 or a replica of an antique or curio firearm manufactured before 1899 that does not use rimfire or centerfire ammunition.

                Archery and Crossbows

                (see Artificial light in Restricted Methods section)

                Only the archery and crossbow equipment prescribed in this section may be used for taking game animals or game birds. Archery and crossbow equipment may not be used to hunt deer during the Muzzleloader-Only Deer Season. It is unlawful to be in possession of a firearm while hunting with a broadhead HUNTING point during the Archery-Only season, except a person licensed to carry a concealed handgun in Texas may carry a concealed handgun. NOTE: A firearm may be possessed in camp, in a motor vehicle, or while hunting lawful game other than whitetail or mule deer and turkey (e.g., exotics, feral hogs, squirrels).

                Nongame Animals: Archery and crossbows are lawful for non-protected nongame animals.

                Longbows, compound bows, or recurved bows:

                    there is no minimum draw requirement.
                    devices that allow a bow to be locked at full or partial draw are lawful during any season when lawful archery equipment may be used.

                Crossbow:

                    IMPORTANT NOTICE: Crossbows are lawful for any person during the Archery-Only Open Season in all counties except Collin, Dallas, Grayson and Rockwall counties, where no person may use a crossbow to hunt deer during the Archery-Only Open Season unless the person has an upper-limb disability and has in immediate possession a physician's statement that certifies the extent of the disability. An upper-limb disability is a permanent loss of the use of fingers, hand, or arm in a manner that renders the person incapable of using a longbow, compound bow, or recurved bow.
                    Any person, regardless of physical ability, may use a crossbow to hunt game animals or game birds in any county, including Collin, Dallas, Grayson and Rockwall counties, during a general open season or Eastern spring turkey season.
                    An archery stamp endorsement is required to hunt deer during the Archery-Only Open Season. An archery stamp endorsement is required to hunt deer at any time in Collin, Dallas, Grayson and Rockwall counties, including during the general open season.
                    A crossbow is lawful for game animals and game birds, provided:
                        the crossbow has a minimum pull of 125 pounds;
                        the crossbow has a mechanical safety; and
                        the crossbow stock is not less than 25 inches in length.
                    Telescopic sights are lawful.

                Projectiles (Arrows and Crossbow Bolts):

                    While hunting game animals and game birds, a projectile may not be poisoned, drugged, or explosive.
                    When used to hunt turkey and all game animals other than squirrels, a projectile must be equipped with a broadhead hunting point that is at least 7/8-inch in width (upon impact) and has a minimum of two cutting edges. A mechanical broadhead must begin to open upon impact and, when open, must be a minimum of 7/8-inch in width.
                    An archer may have arrows/bolts with field, target, or judo points in the quiver with the broadhead hunting points.

                Falconry

                For information on permitting or hunting regulations for falconry, call (800) 792-1112 (menu 7) or (512) 389-4481.
                Restricted Methods

                    It is unlawful for any person, while hunting or engaging in recreational shooting, to knowingly discharge a firearm in such a fashion as to cause a projectile to cross a property line, unless the person owns the property on both sides of the property line or has obtained written permission from the owner of any land crossed by the projectile.

                (I'm aware of several game wardens who have personally enforced this provision. If you interview game wardens for stories in the paper, it's amazing what you can learn that doesn't make it into print.)
                   Remote-controlled Hunting: A person may not engage in computer-assisted remote hunting of any animal or bird or provide or operate facilities for computer-assisted remote hunting if the animal or bird being hunted is located in Texas.
                    Artificial light of any form that casts or reflects a beam of light onto or otherwise illuminates a game animal or bird may not be used as an aid to hunt, except battery-powered scoping devices that project a light or dot only inside the scope; pin sight lights on archery equipment; or laser sighting devices used by legally blind hunters, or hunters who have a documented permanent physical disability that prevents them from using traditional firearm sighting devices.
                        Legal blindness is: no more than 20/200 of visual acuity in the better eye with correcting lenses or visual acuity greater than 20/200, but with a limitation in the field of vision such that the widest diameter of the visual field subtends an angle no greater than 20 degrees. Blind hunters must be assisted by a licensed hunter at least 13 years of age who is not legally blind. Blind hunters must possess a physician's signed statement attesting to legal blindness.
                        A person who uses a laser sighting device because of a permanent physical disability that prevents them from using a traditional firearm sighting device must have in possession a signed statement from a physician or optometrist certifying that the person is incapable of using a traditional firearm sighting device and be accompanied by a person who is not physically disabled or legally blind, has a hunting license, and is at least 13 years of age.
                        Hunter education requirements apply to legally blind hunters, hunters with a documented permanent physical disability, and persons assisting blind or disabled hunters.
                        Non-protected nongame animals and fur-bearing animals may be hunted at night with the aid of an artificial light on private property. If hunting at night, please make a courtesy telephone call to your local game warden.
                    Traps may not be used to hunt game birds or game animals.
                    Dogs may not be used to hunt deer in this state.
                        A person is prohibited from using a dog to hunt or pursue deer in this state. A person who violates this law is subject to a fine of $500-$4,000 and/or a year in jail. Additionally, a person's hunting and fishing licenses may be revoked or suspended. In addition, no person may possess a shotgun and buckshot or slugs while in the field with dogs on another person's land during an open deer season in Angelina, Hardin, Harris, Harrison, Houston, Jasper, Jefferson, Liberty, Montgomery, Nacogdoches, Newton, Orange, Panola, Polk, Rusk, Sabine, San Augustine, San Jacinto, Shelby, Trinity, Tyler, and Walker counties.
                        It is unlawful to use dogs to trail a wounded deer in the counties listed above.
                        Not more than two dogs may be used to trail a wounded deer in counties not listed above. A "wounded deer" is a deer leaving a blood trail.
                    Pheasant may not be hunted by means of a cable, chain, or rope connected to or between a moving object or objects.

                    Aircraft may not be used to hunt any animal or bird unless authorized by the department.

                (So far as I'm aware the only authorized use of aircraft is by TPWD personnel when working herds of bighorn, buffalo, or longhorn for annual vaccinations or necessary relocation / restocking.)
                   See County Listings for additional regulations.

                Legal Methods

                    Animals and game birds not classified as migratory may be hunted from a motor vehicle, powerboat, sailboat, or from any other floating device within the boundaries of private property or upon private water. Migratory game birds under certain circumstances may be hunted from a boat on public water. See the migratory game bird section for the exceptions (Lawful Hunting Means and Methods).
                    Calling devices (including manual and mouth-operated), recordings, and electrically amplified calls may be used to hunt game animals and game birds, except electronic calls may not be used to hunt migratory game birds, unless allowed by special regulation.
                    Decoys may be used to hunt game animals and game birds, except that no person may use live decoys when hunting migratory birds.
                    Baiting for game animals, nongame animals, and game birds is lawful on private property, except for turkey in certain East Texas counties and migratory game birds statewide.
                    Trapping may be used for nongame/exotic animals (e.g., feral hogs, rabbits, etc.) on private property.
                    Dogs may be used to aid in the hunting of any game bird.

                LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

                by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:48:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  my wife loves wild pig, but we dont have any up (0+ / 0-)

              here. I don't know wether to wish they'd come up here or not.

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 08:33:07 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  If it's legal, and it's hunting, it's for a reason (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock

        I started doing wildlife biology at USU in 1966. You're largely correct, but I wish it was 100%. Sometimes some folks just want to kill some stuff, and sometimes that still gets accomodated. I went into pot when I couldn't stand the professional compromises anymore. And that was back before trophy elk permits were being auctioned off for prices that are way past obscene.

        There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

        by oldpotsmuggler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 02:56:21 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The biologists at state fish and wildlife don't (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BlackSheep1

          care so much about our motivations, they're more concerned with how many individuals of a species, how old and what sex and where. The permits here all cost the same, it's the access to the land to hunt them on that sometimes costs five figures.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 03:04:48 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Utah gives a few top quality permits to be used (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ban nock

            as "fund raisers" at hunter expos.

            Back when I was at Utah Fish and Game the few "ecologists" in the agency were called "hippies", and it was not meant as a compliment. And you're right that there has been tons of improvement since then.

            There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

            by oldpotsmuggler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 04:21:40 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've heard of that group in Utah doing it (0+ / 0-)

              http://www.sfw.net/
              Very controversial. The affiliates in other states have never really gotten off the ground. I signed up for an eamail list from the guy who I think is the original inspiration for them, I think his name is Don Pease or something. http://biggameforever.org/...
              They are reputed to be a R wing private control cures all ills let the market take care of things kind of org.

              I hope I'm getting this all correct, it's only my recollection.

              Anyway the mailing list at Big Game Forever (BGF) is supposed to be largish, and they send out very timely emails soliciting people to telephone their senators and congressmen over very specific issues that day. Only one email in every couple few months. They make it very easy to do. They've been effective too. When the feds were making an elk management plan for the Baca National Wildlife Refuge they listed wolves as an alternative for public comment under pressure from the regular wolf advocates. Two days later the USFWS pulled that specific alternative off their web site and said it had never really been a consideration but that they just wanted to put it up there and no way would they ever have wolves reintroduced to the Baca.

              I dont' know if it was BGF and their thousands of email recipients, (supposedly they can tell when people email or use their call assist page) or maybe it was because that's Salazar's back yard, but it worked.

              I'll also say all of their emails have been studiously non political.

              Anyone wants to keep wolves away from elk is ok by me. Don't like any tags sold for lots of money, I'm into fair chase.

              How big is your personal carbon footprint?

              by ban nock on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 04:58:12 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The trend is for money to pervert everything it (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ban nock, BlackSheep1

                touches, and fat cats have always had a thing about safaris and Trophy Hunts. There are very definite and very strong anti democratic forces at work behind the scenes on this one. Hell, even the Mormon Church is in on it. Look up the Deseret Land and Cattle Company (I'm pretty sure that's the name)..

                There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                by oldpotsmuggler on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 07:07:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  Hunters can be a tremendous force (4+ / 0-)

      for environmental good.  Check out organizations like Ducks Unlimited.  My earliest lessons in ecology were given by my father, who taught me the fine art of fly fishing and the slightly less fine art of hunting for pheasant and duck.  I learned that one cannot be successful as a fly fisherman unless one understands, respects, and works within the delicate ecology of the trout stream, and it is an amazing thing to call a duck to your blind by understanding the language of ducks.

      I've been drifting towards vegetarianism over the last several years, so my hunting might be done, and I release any trout I catch these days.  Nevertheless, if approached properly, these are excellent schools for learning the subtle and intricate ways of nature, and why we should defend her.

      There is no contradiction between these pursuits and environmentalism unless the individuals in question are boorish louts.  And I'm a Green; environmentalism is basically the center of my political compass.

      "Forecast for tomorrow? A few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" -Stewie Griffin

      by quillsinister on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 05:57:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I'm a fan of a program here in Texas where (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, pistolSO

      hunters primarily interested in trophies can also donate the meat to food banks. Several deer processors around the state help with this.

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Anne Richards, Barbara Jordan, Sully Sullenberger, Ike, Drew Brees, Molly Ivins --Texas is no Bush league! -7.50,-5.59

      by BlackSheep1 on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 06:47:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  You Couldn't Be More Wrong, Twice (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ban nock, buddabelly

      First, as other Commenters have noted, in the U.S. it is almost universally mandated that the meat be retrieved from any edible big game animal, and MANY are donated to organizations that pass the meat along to needy families that otherwise have little or no meat.

      FURTHERMORE

      How in the sheep-dipping hell would leaving that carcass where it fell be "wasting" anything?? What, exactly, do you think happens to deer that die of natural causes?? Are they "wasted", or do they support an entire ecosystem ranging from vultures, coyotes and possums down to insects and micro-organisms?? Or do you suppose that the bullet hole somehow negates the perfectly natural processes that keep us from being knee deep in dead animals??

      Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

      by The Baculum King on Sun Jan 06, 2013 at 11:23:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And Another Damned Thing (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ban nock, buddabelly

        Have you considered exactly what animals those evil Trophy Hunters target?? They are almost exclusively males, because that's who grow the horns/antlers/tusks that constitute the "trophy", and the growth of those adornments is, with very minor variation, almost exclusively a function of age, so Trophy Hunters are targeting the old, male members of the species, and only after they have had multiple breeding seasons to make their contribution to the gene pool, and frequently after that contribution has ceased because they have been displaced by a younger, more vigorous male, so they are actually killing the least biologically significant animal possible.

        It's a fucked up society where the public display of a woman's breasts is illegal but public displays of profound ignorance is celebrated.

        Or maybe I'm just getting grouchy in my dotage.

        Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.

        by The Baculum King on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 12:16:25 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks for the laugh, I was just scrolling through (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          buddabelly

          the post to make sure there hadn't been comments I'd neglected to rec last night. (early sleep around here) and I found

          How in the sheep-dipping hell
          Just cracked me up.

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 06:13:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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