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View Diary: Shocking Catholic Misogyny (119 comments)

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  •  Where's the beef? (1+ / 0-)
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    I'm sure you can find better, but if this is an example of Catholic misogyny, it would appear that the Catholic Church is among the least misogynous religious organizations there must be.  I mean, seriously?  A letter extolling and expressing gratitude for the sacrifice of mothers on a feast day of Mary? Where's the beef, here? I don't see it.

    •  Where's the letter to priests' fathers telling (2+ / 0-)
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      SeaTurtle, Cassandra Waites

      them that they are now "sons of their sons" and telling them to devote their lives to their sons' ministry?

      •  Maybe wait for St. Joseph's feast (0+ / 0-)

        day for that?  Instead of a holiday celebrating Mary, the mother of God?

        •  Yeah, I'll be holding my breath waiting for a (0+ / 0-)

          letter similarly demeaning to fathers.

          •  Well, let's look at that then (0+ / 0-)

            The whole character of Joseph is pretty demeaning to popular and historical social constructions of masculinity, and pretty much always has been.  Joseph has been a frequent slur for a cuckold throughout history, for example.  Yet Joseph is held up as the example of fatherhood for men to emulate by the Catholic Church.

            Self-sacrifice is the highest expression of love in the tradition of that faith.  That's doesn't seem like a bad thing, regardless of one's beliefs. And there is nothing wrong, per se, of thanking people for actually living up to that.  Not in women and not in men.  

            Are there incidences of misogyny in the Catholic Church?  Yes, of course.  But this just doesn't seem like one of them, at least how you're portraying it.  

            •  But Joseph is never portrayed as being the child (0+ / 0-)

              of Jesus nor is he portrayed as offering his life in service of Jesus' ministry. Self-sacrifice is commendable but mothers of priests can accomplish this in other ways other than in service to their son's ministry.

              •  That's really stretching it. (0+ / 0-)

                The Church is full of accounts and teachings of Joseph and everyone else offering their lives in service to Jesus and to other people.  Or of portrayals as children or sheep, even.  Even Jesus himself is portrayed as such as a character.  Service and submission to a life of servitude and rejection of power are the central tenets of the faith.  Just like submission is the central tenet of Islam, for example, and service and humility are usually upheld as moral virtues in even secular society, regardless of gender.

                I think there are many places you can find unequal expectations for, and exclusions of, women in the Catholic Church.  But this letter, by itself, just isn't it.  What else does this offending Cardinal say at other times, for example?  That might help.

    •  where's the beef? I would say "where's your (0+ / 0-)


      You lack the facts to come the conclusions you have so confidently arrived at.  And you reveal just how vast your ignorance is both about religion and politics:

      it would appear that the Catholic Church is among the least misogynous religious organizations there must be
      Remember the birth control battles recently?  

      Do yourself a favor and think and speak only after you have some knowledge upon which to base what you say.

      We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

      by SeaTurtle on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 08:25:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry turtle, but (0+ / 0-)

        I'm doubling down on my statement after your comment.  Maybe you should read it first, as in the modifying dependent clause beginning with "if" plus the independent clause, if you ever learned that.

        If birth control beliefs were evidence of misogyny, and I agree that a case can be made that they are, then that is what should have been the focus of diary, not a rather innocuous letter about gratitude for maternal sacrifices.  Rather non-sequitur, it seems.  Just because some things are evidence of misogyny in an organization doesn't mean you can interpret everything that way.

        •  I am interpreting the Church's political fight (3+ / 0-)

          against contraception and abortion as being based on misogyny in the clergy. Otherwise, they would go about electing Republicans and other plutocrats around the world using different campaign themes.

          •  I think there is a good argument you (0+ / 0-)

            can make for that, as you have before.  I think a fair  ethnographer wouldn't call it misogyny so much as a failure on the part of an internally supporting male hierarchy to admit it might lack feminine perspective on things, but it's a point that can be made, I agree.

            I just don't see this letter speaking to that point in any way other than merely tangential.  On one of several feast days extolling motherhood, in a faith tradition that upholds self-sacrifice as identical to love, a priest wrote a letter thanking mothers of priests.  Not much more to it than that unless a reader is being deliberately obtuse in his or her interpretation of it.

            •  Progressive Catholics and women in general know (1+ / 0-)
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              that there is nothing in their religion which views mothers as children if their offspring is a priest nor is there anything in their religion which presumes that a mother will want to offer her life to her son's ministry. You, of course, are perfectly free to deny the obvious.

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