Skip to main content

View Diary: Musings on Chuck: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (115 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  PS Volleyboy's proposal of Wesley Clark as an (0+ / 0-)

    alternative to Hagel is particularly hilarious.  

    A Clark nomination would be a MASSIVE mistake.  Clark LOST a stealth fighter in Serbia --and what is worse, failed to bomb the wreckage before it could be carted away and sold to rival powers for analysis and reverse engineering.   BBC and UK's Daily Mail had an article a year ago re how China's new stealth fighter was derived from the Serbia debris:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/...

    To see how deeply Wesley stepped in crap, Think about someone hitting Washington, New York , Boston, Atlanta etc with nukes carried by stealth cruise missiles -- and we having no way to know where they came from or who to
    retaliate against.

    You really do not want to let the Republicans open that can of worms.  

    •  BWAHAHA You "AIPAC IS TEH EBILZ" people (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shane Hensinger, leftynyc

      crack me up.

      You think they run everything but that is just stupid.

      They are an effective lobbying group. It is their job to do that, and they are like any other lobbying group. Sometimes they get what they want and other times they don't. Are they strong? Yep. Do they force anything out of the mainstream? Nope. Despite your "OH TEH NOEZ, AIPAC forces our policies" arguments... NOPE. The American people strongly support our relationship with Israel, and so does the mainstream Jewish community. So really stop while you are behind.

      Then you go on to prattle on about Sheldon Adelson. Why? Oh right.. because he's Jewish. Nevermind.

      Oh and nevermind that Sheldon Adelson's name doesn't appear in this diary, in any way, shape, or form.

      But speaking of Adelson... How did his influence work out? Oh wait.... IT DIDN'T. The idiot tossed away millions of dollars for pretty much NOTHING.

      Nice try with your cover though....

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:11:54 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  $150 Million counts for nothing in politics? (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        leftynyc

        Gee, who knew?

        I was under the impression that Cynthia McKinney's political career was destroyed by a mere $1 million flowing into Georgia from AIPAC

        And I recall Israel Lobby billionaire S Daniel Abraham blowing Howard Dean's presidential campaign out of the water in the Iowa primary with a mere $200,000 in anonymous attack ads.   Even Forward blinked at that.
        I was a volunteer in Dean's campaign.

        And I mentioned Sheldon Adelson because when someone is ignoring the elephants in the room -- in fact, is claiming that the elephants don't even exist -- it sometime helps to point out one of the elephants and say his name.

        And re "lobbying" we are not talking about a few business favors or tax breaks here.   When you provoke an unnecessary war that kills 4500 Americans, cripples thousands more for life and steals $3 Trillion from the sick, the poor, the elderly and the unemployed, you have crossed over into something beyond lobbying.   Even if you try to wipe the fingerprints off the coffins.

        http://www.haaretz.com/...

        http://www.jewishjournal.com/...

        •  Nope... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger

          Cynthia McKinney's career torched itself with a combination of craziness and anti-Semitism. That is not really a successful combination in American politics. Just sayin'

          Hey but nice try on trying to "Jew Wash" your commentary with the Ari Shavit's commentary in Haaretz. Blaming AIPAC for Iraq.. Nope. Iraq was a whole mess of things not the least of which was an attempt to steal oil, shift a lot of money over to friends who were defense contractors and an aggressive attempt to establish "Pax Americana" over the Middle East. Oh yeah, and help our Saudi friends who feared Sadaam Hussein's attempts to mold himself into becoming the next Gamal Abdel Nasser and worrying about his support against their own oppression.

          As for Adelson and his Millions... Let's see... Jewish votes went 70-30% for the President so there goes those millions. His support for Newt... POOF! How'd that work out? Exactly what did his $ 40 million to Crossroads get him? Right, the Republicans LOST TWO SEATS in the Senate AND EIGHT HOUSE SEATS. How are we doing so far? Shall we keep going or do you want to keep stirring the ashes of your destroyed memes.

          SO Again.. you ummmm feel like addressing the main point of the diary, which is WHY did our President who won a sizable victory in November pick a Conservative Republican for a post when he could have taken any number of well qualified Democrats and WHY does the President feel this overwhelming need to be inclusive of Republicans, when the American people rejected their agenda this fall?

          Oh and you still haven't defended your support of Hagel despite his homophobic views as well as support for enhanced surveillance of Americans. You don't support that do you.

          OH yeah, and despite your wildest dreams, even if Hagel is nominated.... It still won't affect our relationship with Israel. SO...

          Oh well....

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:53:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  An AIPAC obsessive (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, leftynyc

            If he's so concerned he should start a lobbying group which is opposed to AIPAC.

            "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

            by Shane Hensinger on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:24:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Heh... Yep... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              leftynyc

              The funny thing is that I am not really an AIPAC supporter - notice my blogroll. They are not on it, but J Street (who supports Hagel btw) is. ALSO, as one could see I support Likud's opposition in Israel...

              But I just really hate the bullshit that the AIPAC obsessed morons toss into the ring. They think that no one can see through their bullshit and they are just that clever.

              It's pretty funny to watch them obsess though, even if it is pathetic.

              It's just as pathetic as watching those on the Hard Right obsess about "TEH EBILZ MOOSLIMS", they are so fixated on blaming one group for all of the worlds ills. It's like watching a really bad movie that you can't turn away from.

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:34:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  OH YEAH... and though you bitch about Clark (0+ / 0-)

      who at least is a Democrat and who supports Democratic causes, you still didn't address the main problems of the Hagel nomination.

      That is why did the President nominate a Republican who averaged 84 according to the American Conservative Union and constantly scored well with the Conservative American Taxpayers Union?

      Also, do you have any issue with the fact that the man has always had an issue with the Rights of LGBT Community or do they not count to you?

      You whine about Clark losing a drone while winning a campaign against the Serbs and stopping the ethnic cleansing going on in Serbia (because you know... the guy has to be perfect) and THIS is the only reason he can't be Sec. Def.

      But it's all about TEH JOOZ and TEH EBILZ IZRAILEES - eh?

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:19:02 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't care about this record on GLBT issues (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        volleyboy1

        Mainly because I believe he's changed and because SecDef doesn't make policy - he carries it out. On the bigger issues Hagel is great.

        I appreciate your effort on this diary though, despite our disagreement on this issue, which is why I tipped it.

        "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

        by Shane Hensinger on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:45:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thanks Shane... I know you and I disagree here (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shane Hensinger

          but our disagreement can be discussed without the overshadow of bigoted meme's and I do respect your opinion.

          I also agree that whether or not Hagel is Sec. Def. not much will change.. Hence my first paragraph.

          I do have to ask you though as a gay man - How can you be sure that he has changed? As you know, I am straight, but, even I don't really see it. He has a consistent record of conservative voting, his apology to Hormel obviously came when he was being considered for the post... It just doesn't seem particularly real to me.

          But, even if you do accept his apology, his record of Conservative legislation is disturbing? I really don't see why the President needed to nominate Hagel when there are others out there who would be just as strong if not stronger AND who are Democrats.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:00:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really because I see the bigger issues (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            volleyboy1, Anorish

            It's important that a veteran be in that position for so many reasons - because war is not a picnic nor something to be considered lightly. Hagel knows that. He also understands, and this is critically important, the proper role of intelligence in the decision-making process leading to conflict. I support his views on Iran - I do not support an attack on Iran under any circumstances because it will not accomplish anything other than turning a populace which generally admires this country into one which absolutely loathes it - forever.

            As I said before - SecDef does not make policy. He carries it out. DADT repeal is law and is now policy and it will never be reversed nor slowed and certainly not by the actions of the Secretary of Defense.

            I would not vote for him as a Senator or representative from California. But he's not in the running for that - he represented Nebraska when he was in the Senate. I never expected him to do any differently.

            "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

            by Shane Hensinger on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:15:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I hear you... and I agree with you about the (0+ / 0-)

              in general about the veteran thing (though Michele Flournoy does have some very strong points). Look at who I suggested though. All are veterans. All have been through wars.

              As for Iran... At this point I too don't support an attack. I think there are other, more effective ways to deal with the Iranian nuclear program that a massive military strike would not accomplish.

              As I said in the diary, I don't think much, if anything will change with Hagel in the position but, again I think there are others who could do the job just as well if not better AND are Dems. I think that is the important thing. Having a Democrat Cabinet official in a Democratic Administration.

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:26:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  I think that a casual insult a decade ago does not (0+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        Hidden by:
        leftynyc

        rank at the same level as dragging the country into an unnecessary war that killed 4500, crippled thousands more for life and cost our sick, our elderly, our poor and our unemployed $3 Trillion.  

        Given that Hagel will have little to no effect on gay rights, I think that hyperventilating over the issue while ignoring the far bigger question of who is suited to command the military --and make the decisions over war vs peace--
        is highly irresponsible.  

        And shows a callous indifference to the live of our servicemen --including those who are gay.

        And yes --someone who does not recognize the major mistake Wesley Clark made in Serbia is not competent to have an opinion re who should be Secretary of Defense.

        •  AHAHAHA... nice.... (0+ / 0-)
          I think that a casual insult a decade ago does not rank at the same level as dragging the country into an unnecessary war that killed 4500, crippled thousands more for life and cost our sick, our elderly, our poor and our unemployed $3 Trillion.  
          Oh..  you mean a war that Hagel VOTED FOR in the first place though he thought that the Bush Administration was incompetent in it's handling but not regarding it's conception? That war?

          Or when you say "dragging" do you mean his party which bankrupted America through it's insane economic policies (Extreme tax cuts while starting two wars off the books) that Hagel supported?

          Given that Hagel will have little to no effect on gay rights, I think that hyperventilating over the issue while ignoring the far bigger question of who is suited to command the military --and make the decisions over war vs peace--
          is highly irresponsible.  
          Oh right, because having a guy who holds bigoted views regarding millions of Americans is just the right person that we should have near the top of the military chain. Oh... and FYI, the Sec. Def. DOES NOT set policy for War and Peace. That is the job of the President. Just in case you were wondering. But good to see that you actually don't give a crap about American Civil Rights. I mean how could those be important? Right?

          If anyone shows a callous disregard for our servicemen/service women - it looks like it is you.  

          But this is hilarious

          And yes --someone who does not recognize the major mistake Wesley Clark made in Serbia is not competent to have an opinion re who should be Secretary of Defense.
          OH NOW I don't get to have an opinion regarding Chuck because in the end I don't see a mistake made during war as disqualifier for the Sec. Def. position? My, how progressive of you.

          Heh.. Again my advice, either quit while you are behind or watch people that are better at arguing than you are (see Shane's commentary - he is a Hagel supporter) to see how it's really done.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:21:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  The wreckage was surrounded by civilians (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      you idiot. It wasn't bombed because NATO was doing everything it could to minimize civilian casualties. You would have preferred it be carpet bombed killing everyone swarming it?

      There are problems with Clark - this is not one.

      "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

      by Shane Hensinger on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 09:43:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The stealth fighter should not have been used (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        absdoggy

        in Serbia to begin with -- we had no national interest there that justified putting it at risk.

        And yes -- the wreckage should have been bombed even if Serbian civilians were killed.   It's loss was a major blow to US national security.

        Go ahead -- nominate Clark.  See what happens.

        •  Wrong - Serbia was committing genocide (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          in Kosovo which was threatening a war which would have dragged in the entire region including Greece and Turkey. We should have gone to war earlier - halted Serbian ethnic cleansing and irredentism way before we did.

          "The two pioneering forces of modern sensibility are Jewish moral seriousness and homosexual aestheticism and irony." Susan Sontag

          by Shane Hensinger on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:06:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really? So when did you act on your moral (0+ / 0-)

            indignation, pick up a M16 rifle and arrive in Serbia?

            I myself think that the lives of US servicemen should be put at risk only to defend the USA.   I would never expect a fellow American to die in defense of my moral opinions --especially if I wasn't there with him or her.

            Although I have no problem with bombing the crap out of some jerks who deserved it, provided the risk to the pilots is reasonable low.   But the stealth technology  should never have been put at risk there.

            The people in Kosovo were being massacred because we cut off the supply of arms to them.  

        •  Clark didn't make a decision to bomb Serbia. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          volleyboy1

          I think it was a good idea to do it but if you disagree blame Clinton.

          •  I wasn't criticizing the decision to bomb Serbia - (0+ / 0-)

            I criticized the deployment of the Stealth Fighter --and the failure to destroy its wreckage when it was lost.

            And I don't think Clinton was managing the war at that level of detail at that time -- I seem to recall an impeachment and affair Lewinski being a distraction.

            Although he would be held  ultimately responsible as Commander in Chief if this issue blew up during a Clark nomination.

            So, what kind of promotion did Wesley get after Yugoslavia surrendered?  I don't remember the ticker tape parade for some reason.

             http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      •  LOL Shane... This guy is just worried about (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shane Hensinger

        "TEH EBILZ AIPAC" anything else is just flimsy "window dressing".

        There are issues with Clark as with everyone else (I kind of like Sestak or Flournoy here btw) but thanks for at least bringing a principled opposition to my points. I can respect that.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:06:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So -- did Kenneth Pollack,Marty Indyk and (0+ / 0-)

          Haim Saban ever find those nukes of Saddam's?

          http://articles.latimes.com/...

          •  No.. And..... (0+ / 0-)

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:35:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  No... And... (0+ / 0-)

            What's your point? You want to show that your simplistic meme of AIPAC IS TEH EBILZ and forced our poor lawmakers (who really wouldn't have done it but since AIPAC controls everything had no choice) in to going to war?

            Of course the fact that this simple minded meme is nonsense and ignores a greater more complex picture.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 at 10:52:46 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Either you are uninformed or willfully ignoring (2+ / 6-)
            Recommended by:
            jbou, gzodik
            Hidden by:
            leftynyc, JNEREBEL, Eyesbright, Brit, lostboyjim, BFSkinner

            the facts.   While Bush and Cheney were in charge -- and invaded Iraq for the Oil --the question is why did a major faction in the Democratic Party let them.   I don't remember hearing about the Magic Filibuster back then.

            Well, because the top Democratic donor in 2000-2002 was Haim Saban -- an Israeli billionaire who dumped almost $15 MILLION into the Democratic Party.  That was big money back in those days -- even Israel Lobby billionaire S Daniel Abraham only tossed in $1 million.

            Haim makes no secret that he "is a one-issue man and that issue is Israel".  See Wikipedia if you really don't know who he is --  the major financier of Hillary Clinton's Presidential bid.  Or read Haaretz's Dec 2007 interview with him.

            Haim also bought his own "think tank" at Brookings.   Director of Research in 2002 was (and still is)  Kenneth Pollack, a National Security Staffer in the Clinton Administration.   Kenneth
            Pollack wrote the best-selling 2002 book "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq" -- which argued --like Bibi-- that Saddam was acquiring nukes and we needed to take him out.   Did Kenneth ever find those nukes?

            As liberal blogger Matthew Yglesias noted in a 2007 LA Times OpEd:

            "Of course, those of us who read Pollack's celebrated 2002 book, "The Threatening Storm: The Case for Invading Iraq," and became convinced as a result that the United States needed to, well, invade Iraq in order to dismantle Saddam Hussein's advanced nuclear weapons program (the one he didn't actually have) might feel a little too bitter to once again defer to our betters."

            http://www.latimes.com/...

            Read Threatening Storm.   I especially like the part where we were told the invasion of Iraq would only cost a few tens of billions of dollars and few casualties.

            Daniel Drezner put Kenneth's book on his list of "10 Worst Books in International Relations" with the note:

            "In the run-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, Pollack's book became the intellectual justification for Democrats to support the invasion.  And we now know that result."

            Of course, billionaire Haim seems happy with it.

            :

            •  LOL I know who Haim Saban is (5+ / 0-)

              and what he has done. What is your point? To single out a Jewish Billionaire?

              Do you think that "Teh Ebilz JOOZ" forced the Democratic Party to support the Republican effort in Iraq? ROFL... You do recall that their was widespread support from the American Population for that mostly based on false information that was presented by the Government. Even your precious Chuck Hagel bought that information hook, line and sinker and VOTED FOR the war. Bush and Co. may have faced some opposition in the streets but not in the halls of power.

              So, you can argue all day long about how "TEH JOOZ FORCED US INTO WAR", but that doesn't make it right. The fact is that the Administration under George W. Bush and Dick Cheney WANTED to go to war for a myriad of reasons the least of which was because Haim Saban and "teh AIPACS" told them they "had" too.

              Heh......

              "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

              by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:55:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  YOu are the only one here who has smeared (2+ / 5-)

                the American Jewish community by associating them with the acts of the Israel Lobby.   As I noted above, the problem is several billionaires -- some of whom are not Jewish -- and those who prostitute for them.  

                IT is the usual dishonest tactic of the Israel Lobby -- to argue that   criticism of the deceit that dragged us into IRaq is anti-Semitic.   Whereas associating the American Jewish community with this malign group ranks right up there with the lies Adolf told in Mein Kampf.

                The New York Times and Judith Miller were not part of the Bush Administration.   Kenneth Pollack, Marty Indyk, and Haim Saban were not part of the Bush Administration.   The Neocons beating the drums for war in the media were not part of the Bush Administration.   Sheldon Adelson was not part of the Bush Administration.    The people destroying Howard Dean were not in the Bush Administration.  

                •  Nope... not even a nice try (4+ / 0-)
                  YOu are the only one here who has smeared the American Jewish community by associating them with the acts of the Israel Lobby.  
                  This crap may fly on the drooling Right (or Left since both merge on this) but it won't here. This stuff like "Israel is responsible for the Iraq war" is straight out anti-Semitism which has it's basis in the Protocols, so please stop "pussyfooting" around. You know this.

                  Moreover you expose yourself because all you care about in a diary which goes into depth regarding the opposition to Chuck Hagel is what AIPAC did regarding Iraq. WHICH btw, rings hollow since Hagel voted to SUPPORT the War and only criticized the Bush Administration for it's inept handling of said war. YET, you seem to want to point out that the war was the fault of Jewish Billionaires as your links attempt to show, which has nothing to do with the diary in any case.

                  Whereas associating the American Jewish community with this malign group ranks right up there with the lies Adolf told in Mein Kampf.
                  What a horrible lie.

                  First of all, I don't know if you are aware but the American Jewish Community is overwhelmingly supportive of the State of Israel and in general of the two major lobbying groups (AIPAC and JStreet) that argue in maintaining America's relationship with Israel. That is a fact and it is hardly the same thing as the things Hitler wrote about in Mein Kampf. Saying that the majority of of American Jews (an overwhelming majority at that) supports lobbying groups that push for a strong relationship between Israel and the U.S. is the same as a book calling for the Genocide of a people and ascendency of a "Master Race", is both ignorant and ridiculous.

                  And this...

                  The New York Times and Judith Miller were not part of the Bush Administration.   Kenneth Pollack, Marty Indyk, and Haim Saban were not part of the Bush Administration.   The Neocons beating the drums for war in the media were not part of the Bush Administration.   Sheldon Adelson was not part of the Bush Administration.    The people destroying Howard Dean were not in the Bush Administration.
                  is pure stupidity.

                  There were many people pushing for War with Iraq at that time (including your boy Chuck Hagel). There are many reasons for that war, your simplistic rationale is both foolish and easily disproven except at hate sites like davidduke.com, stormfront.com and Mondofront.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:42:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There is a big difference between "pushing for (2+ / 6-)
                    Recommended by:
                    jbou, gzodik
                    Hidden by:
                    blueness, livosh1, lostboyjim, BFSkinner, dhonig, JNEREBEL

                    a strong relationship with Israel" and lying the USA into an unnecessary war that killed 4500 Americans, crippled thousands for life and wasted $3 Trillion.  

                    Contrary to your claim, "everybody" was NOT doing the lying and it was NOT just Bush and Cheney.  As I've shown.

                    And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.  There were many Jews who protested against that invasion.  They, however, don't make a living pandering to Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.

                    But keep on.   Your willful distortions, twisting of what I say into something completely different and refusal to face the facts  discredit the Lobby far better than anything I could say.  

                    •  Re "Israel is responsible for this" (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      jbou, gzodik

                      I never said that -- as I noted above, the problem is several American billionaires and their money.  

                      I did not Bibi's 2002 con --but My fellow progressives in Israel grumble about the money those same US billionaires throw into Israeli elections to get Likud leaders like Bibi elected.  

                      Sheldon Adelson even purchased an Israeli newspaper for the purpose -- and is trying to bankrupt opposition newspapers in the Microsoft manner by giving his newspaper away for free.

                      •  Yes.. Yes you did (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Eyesbright, leftynyc

                        You claim that "the Lobby" lied us into a War.

                        AND the Iraq War was much more than just a few billionaires and their money. It was the Bush administrations effort to 1. Steal Oil, 2. Make friends rich in the Arms business, 3. Enforce Pax Americana in the Middle East, 4. Help their Saudi Friends concerned about Sadaam and his attempts to become the next Gamal Abdel Nasser, 5. to help the Israelis who saw Saddam attempting to bankroll the Palestinian intifada.

                        As for the rest of your stuff.... Yeah, Adelson is a shitball... Who denies that? No one. But your bullshit that "The Lobby caused the War" No... channeling the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is NOT acceptable.

                        Again, though remind me.... Exactly what does this have to do with the appointment of a Conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

                        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                        by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:07:29 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Too funny... Do you really believe the nonsense (4+ / 0-)

                      you type?

                      Let's start with this:

                      There is a big difference between "pushing for a strong relationship with Israel" and lying the USA into an unnecessary war that killed 4500 Americans, crippled thousands for life and wasted $3 Trillion.
                      Yes... there is a big difference. The first thing: "pushing for a strong relationship with Israel" is what both AIPAC and J Street do. The second thing (an unnecessary war....) is something that most anti-Semites and Neo-Nazi's like to claim AIPAC and J Street (better known to you folks as the "Israel Lobby") did. But just because they claim it, doesn't mean it happened. Oh, AIPAC may have supported the American action but, there is a difference between supporting and causing. For you to say that they "caused" the war to happen simply echoes C.T. straight out of the Protocols. It's a simplistic, bigoted and incredibly stupid answer to a complicated question.

                      Then you say:

                      Contrary to your claim, "everybody" was NOT doing the lying and it was NOT just Bush and Cheney.  As I've shown.
                      Wait... What? This sentence doesn't even make sense.

                      Ok... Everybody in the Administration or who were their good buddies (like Senator Chuck Hagel who voted for this war) was lying. Colin Powell went to the U.N. and lied to the world. All you showed in your links were that there were conservative Jews that supported the War and yes there were conservative Jews that supported the War... there were also MILLIONS of other conservatives that supported war, and the rest of the American population.

                      And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.
                      And if I were the one doing that, you would be right... but actually it is YOU who is trying to do that. I was not the one that posted a column from Haaretz talking about the "mostly Jewish neo-cons". That was you.

                      As for this:

                      And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.  There were many Jews who protested against that invasion.  They, however, don't make a living pandering to Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.
                      Yes many Jews and other Americans did protest that war

                      Just for your info. sake - American support for war with Iraq was 62% in 2002. In March of '03 that number was up to 72%.

                      More telling was this (From Gallup)

                      And here you go regarding an overview of polling:

                      HOWEVER... even more to the point. You want to keep talking about AIPAC... Well here you go, Now.. who does it look like was doing the pushing here... Why the Bush Administration that's who.

                      Oh and there is this:

                      AIPAC never supported or lobbied for the war in Iraq.[15] According to a columnist in the Washington Post, "Once it was clear that the Bush administration was determined to go to war [in Iraq], AIPAC cheered from the sidelines".[14] Some observers suggested the official silence owed to concerns that linking Israel to the war "could alienate friendly Arab states by suggesting that the war is driven by Israel's interests."[16]
                      Of course your ultimate projection here:  
                      Your willful distortions, twisting of what I say into something completely different and refusal to face the facts  discredit the Lobby far better than anything I could say.  
                      Is a sad comment on the fact that really you spent all this time yapping about "the lobby" only to get hammered time and time by the facts. The only person distorting anything is you.

                      You guys have to really do better next time.

                      Oh and in the end - what does this have to do with Chuck Hagel and support for the nomination of a conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

                      Right... it has nothing to do with it.

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 12:54:53 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  WHO promoted the invasion of Iraq? (1+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        jbou
                        Hidden by:
                        leftynyc

                        You make accusations based on vague statements in order to duck and  ignore the facts.

                        1) Bush and Cheney:  check
                        2) Foundation for Defense of Democracy --funded by Israel Lobby billionaires: check
                        3) Judith Miller of the New York Times and the Times publisher?  Check
                        4) The Neocon propagandists cited by Thomas Friedman in the Haaretz interview :  Check.   Tom said the war would not have occurred if not for their propaganda.  And while Haaretz noted that most of them are Jewish, I noted that they live off the charity --and hence are owned by -- right wing Gentile billionaires Rupert Murdoch and Phillip Anschutz.
                        5) Kenneth Pollack , employed by Israeli billionaire Haim Saban:  Check
                        I can give you several liberal commentators who all testify that they supported the invasion because they trusted Pollack
                        6) Fox NEws: check

                        And if you look at the Sept 2007 Haaretz interview of Haim Saban, he stated explicitly that he feels it is his duty to use his billions to influence US politics and ensure that the USA continues to protect Israel.   But , like Sheldon Adelson, I see no where in which Haim says he has a duty to America.

                        I never said J Street was involved in promoting the war -- in fact, I noted that George Soros funded the opposition.  So why did you make that false accusation?

                        •  You keep talking about the Israel Lobby (2+ / 0-)

                          which J Street is part of. Don't try to weasel out.

                          Did a few billionaires support and cheer for the war with Iraq? Whoever said they didn't? Show me one place where I claimed they didn't? Just one.

                          A lot of other people than the ones you noted promoted War with Iraq as well. But you only keep talking about Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson. I wonder why? Well... no really I don't.

                          As for this:

                          But , like Sheldon Adelson, I see no where in which Haim says he has a duty to America.
                          WTF... Jewish Billionaires now need to swear loyalty oaths. Do you demand that of any other billionaires out there or just Jews?

                          The fact of the matter is that there were a lot of factors that led up to the Iraq War, but, it "the Lobby" did not force ANYONE into a war. If anyone did it was Conservatives led by George Bush and Dick Cheney.

                          And again: - what does this have to do with Chuck Hagel and support for the nomination of a conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

                          Right... it has nothing to do with it.

                          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                          by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:34:20 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  HR for non-sequitor (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      volleyboy1

                      Oh, I guess it's anti-semetic too (or as I saw in another diary today: you're comment; its anti-semantic).

                      Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

                      by lostboyjim on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 05:56:58 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  you just (3+ / 0-)

                  had to go to Hitler, didn't you?

                  HRed.

              •  Foundation for Defense of Democracies (2+ / 2-)
                Recommended by:
                jbou, gzodik
                Hidden by:
                MBNYC, livosh1

                was not part of Bush's Administration either.

                http://thinkprogress.org/...

                It's Board of Advisors is interesting:  Richard Perle.  Williams Kristol.  Charles Krauthammer.   Gary Bauer.

                But until a few years back it included Charles Schumer.   Strange bedfellows, no?

                http://www.sourcewatch.org/...

                •  Yeah... It's a Right Wing organization (3+ / 0-)

                  that has rich people supporting a conservative agenda. What a surprise! (/snark)

                  and then you back it up with a site that quotes Jeffery "Holocaust, What Holocaust... and it was the Jews fault anyway" Blankfort. Wow... again, color me surprised... Well not really.

                  And that has what to do with a diary regarding the nomination of a conservative former Senator who averaged a score of 84 with the American Conservative Union, averaged A's and B's with the Highly Conservative Tax Payers Union, was heavily criticized by American Civil Rights Groups and was nominated by Democratic President?

                  Oh right... NOTHING.

                  "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                  by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:54:54 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Who else has Hagel's record of opposition to (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    gzodik

                    the Israel Lobby?  In that regard -- one of the needed requirements for the Secretary of Defense -- he is more faithful to Democratic ideals and principles than some who merely call themselves Democratic.

                    Howard Dean would be acceptable to me --but he is not on the list and lack experience in some areas.    Jim Webb maybe -- but he has an unfortunate tendency of driving Admirals to blow their brains out/commit suicide.

                    Besides, President Obama has explained why he chose Hagel:

                    http://www.dailykos.com/...
                    "And that’s exactly the spirit I want on my national security team -- a recognition that when it comes to the defense of our country, we are not Democrats or Republicans; we are Americans.  Each of us has a responsibility, Chuck has said, to be guided not by the interest of our party or our President even, but by “the interests of our country.”

                    Do you think Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban subscribe to that ethos?  What does the record I've given you above say?

                    •  Wesley Clark, (3+ / 0-)

                      Joe Sestak - do I really need to make a fucking list of Democrats that could do this job?  It's simply revolting that so many here want to kiss the ass of this republican because they think he's going to do something against Israel (which will NEVER happen with President Obama and VP Biden in office).

                    •  Oh so opposing the Israel Lobby is what (0+ / 0-)

                      the Sec. Def. should be most focused on? Really now. Are you saying that the "Israel Lobby" is the greatest danger our nation faces? Wow... who knew...

                      Oh... and I don't know many Democrats who averaged an 84 score from the American Conservative Union and constantly got A's and B's from the American Taxpayer Union.

                      Boy howdy... that sure sounds like the Perfect Democrat to me (/snark).

                      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:15:04 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A major duty of the Secretary of Defense is (0+ / 0-)

                        ensuring that our intelligence is processed in an honest, balanced and objective fashion that is in the US national interest.   That it is not manipulated to promote a war if that war is not necessary.

                        Past history shows that a willingness to stand up to the immense pressure and influence of the Israel Lobby is a requirement for that.

                        I asked above why Nancy Pelosi blocked Jane Harman from becoming Chair of the House Intelligence Committee.   Anybody want to answer yet?

                        •  Nonsense... (0+ / 0-)

                          Well not nonsense if you believe that the Israel Lobby is controlling America.. but honestly that is sort of a ridiculous belief unless of course you subscribe to the Z.O.G. theory. Is that what you believe?

                          You give the Israel Lobby far more power than they have. And if they were so all powerful... How did the Hagel nomination even happen... UNLESS... They actually either:

                          A. Don't really have the power you ascribe to them or

                          B. Don't care whether Hagel is Sec. Def or not.

                          Oh and can you show me in the job description where:

                          Past history shows that a willingness to stand up to the immense pressure and influence of the Israel Lobby is a requirement for that.
                          So "standing up to the Israel Lobby" is a requirement for the job of Secretary of Defense. I must've missed that when looking up the position. (/snark). Of course, in the real world, it's not a requirement because in all honesty the "Israel Lobby" is the all encompassing evil you make it out to be.

                          As for Pelosi and Harman... There seemed to be a conflict in power. Here is a perspective from Salon

                          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                          by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:07:52 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  If the Israel Lobby was all powerful our soldiers (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gzodik

                            would be dying in Iran.   It is a major power but obviously there are others.   That doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be opposed.

                            As I noted above, Bush and Cheney largely worked for Big Oil -- Cheney and Republicans were clever enough to kneecap Democratic opposition to a bloody oil grab by selling it as a defense of Israel.

                            Knowing that either the Democrats would cave or massive  donors like Haim Saban would defect to the Republicans, causing the Democratic Party to dry up and go the way of the Whigs.

                            The Salon article is misleading in several respects.   The author evidently didn't realize that Nancy Pelosi had access to all information the House Intel Committee received as Speaker of the House.  Harman had no special powers over Pelosi.

                            Nancy Pelosi and two Democratic Senators on the Senate's Intel Committee (Diane Feinstein, Robert Graham) publicly warned prior to the invasion of Iraq that they had seen no evidence that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat.

                            In contrast, Jane Harman rolled over for the Neocons and did not support Pelosi/Graham/Feinstein.   As the Ranking Minority member on HPSCI, she should have done the critical analysis before the war that the Iraq Commission did after the war.   There are two reasons, in my opinion, why she did not.  

                            One is that Boeing in her district had received a massive contract to build the next generation of spy satellites (FIA) and wasted $10 BILLION (and 5 years) before finally losing the contract in 2005 because they could not perform.  From 2001-2005, Cheney was holding a hammer over Boeing that he could drop if Harman didn't play ball.

                            The other reason is that, according to TIME,  Harman was in the tank for Israeli billionaire Haim Saban:

                            http://www.time.com/...

                            "Saban has donated at least $3,000 to Harman's campaign, according to Federal Election Commission records, and the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, which he sponsors at the prestigious Brookings Institution, boasts Harman among its biggest fans. "When the Saban Center talks, I listen," Harman said at a Saban Center briefing in February on U.S. strategy in Iraq. Harman quipped that, in order to attend the session at Brookings, she had to "blow off" a senior intelligence official's appearance before a House committee. "

                            NOTE:  TIME's other claims in that story -- that Harman cut a deal to get two AIPAC guys off the hook on spying charges -- were never proven.  

                          •  OK repeat after me.... Haim Saban DOES NOT (0+ / 0-)

                            run the U.S. Government. Neither does Sheldon Adelson... Yet you keep prattling on about them.

                            The fact of the matter is, that Big Oil had far more to do with Iraq than anyone else. Second in line, were the weapons and defense manufacturers. Israel was far down the line.

                            You see conspiracies where none exist... Well none exist except on whack conspiracy sites and updated versions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Do not think that anyone is fooled by your cynical attempts to focus on a few Jews as the cause the for the entire Iraq War. We have seen this before time and time again through history.

                            Your story about Harman... btw, reflects that influence of Defense Contractors NOT Haim Saban.

                            Now I get that on stormfront, or davidduke.com, or MondoFront... this shit flies. But you aren't at any of those sites. You are here on DKos and we know this crap when we see it.

                            You don't even understand what the "Israel Lobby" (AIPAC and JStreet) really are in the first place. They exist for one purpose. That is to promote a strong relationship between Israel and the U.S.

                            Oh and hey... Looks like my diary was correct in one other aspect of things. Here is YNET (an Israeli paper) regarding Hagel

                            In fact, Israel has nothing to do with Obama's choice. Obama's Israel and Iran policy hasn't changed. His decision is based on the belief that Hagel will stand strong in the face of pressure against major cuts in the defense budget.

                            Hagel himself is far from being anti-Israel. But to win the Senate's trust he will have to convince at least 10 Democrat senators, Jewish and non-Jewish Israel supporters, to remove their objection to his appointment.

                            Hagel made the first step in this direction in an interview for a Nebraska paper and in private talks.

                            The White House examined Hagel's voting history regarding Israel and Iran and came to the conclusion that as far as US-Israel military cooperation and sanctions against Iran go, Hagel's views are in line with the president's.

                            As we all know... President Obama's record on Israel is impeccable with the highest level of security cooperation between the U.S. and Israel that has ever existed. The President has had a strong record in this and in the diplomatic arena of supporting Israel, and now according to Hagel and the President, he is line with that.

                            But, I still don't care - I don't like his nomination because I think there are Democrats who are more qualified and I think that they not some Conservative Republican should have been "tapped" for the job.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:47:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, the Defense Contractors were unhappy (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gzodik

                            with the Iraq War -- but not with the "War on Terror".

                            Iraq sucked a lot of money out of the Procurement Budget and diverted it to Operations and Personnel.   Iraq was an Infantry war , not a glamous High Tech  war.  If you divert a lot of money to bullets, provisions, soldiers salaries, medical care for wounded troops, fuel,  etc etc then there is less for hugely expensive F35 fighters.  And the big profits are in the F35 fighters, not MREs and ammo.

                            It gets especially difficult if your guys in the Pentagon -- Air Force Chief of Staff and Secretary of Air Force -- get fired by SecDef Gates because they are not contributing to the current war and are spending money on other things.

                            However, there obviously is a tight link between Big Oil and Big Defense.   There would be a lot less support for Big D if not for Big Oil's foreign investments.   Although I think it is idiotic to support a business in which automobile gasoline costs us $40 per gallon -- $3.70 at and the pump and another $36 per gallon to control the Middle East.

                            Re your other point, the US is run by the billionaires who just dumped $3 Billion in to the last election.   Some of them think their policy re Israel is important -- and the rest are happy to humor them so long as the rice bowls of the others are not effected.  

                            But when American lives are being lost, it is no longer  just politics and money.  

                          •  Now you are making a totally different argument (0+ / 0-)

                            Why? Probably because you realize that the argument that the "Israel Lobby controls Washington" doesn't fly here. And no you can't even ease into that nonsense here so don't.

                            Now... if you want to say that money plays major role in politics, you will find absolutely no disagreement from me. I mean look at the influence of the Koch Brothers, or Big Oil, or Big Pharma... Those are all major players.

                            The decision to push through Citizens United I think was a major disaster. Oh and btw, for your info. Your guy Chuck Hagel VOTED AGAINST Campaign Finance reform in McCain-Feingold. So, I wouldn't be so sure that he will stand against any lobbying money from Israel or otherwise.

                            YOU however have spent this entire diary arguing about how the "Israel Lobby" was the cause of our War with Iraq and how Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson ran our government. NOW... after seeing that as they say "that dog doesn't hunt", you are changing things up to recognize that it is NOT just two Jewish rich guys but a whole lot of rich guys who honestly have bigger "fish to fry" than Israel.

                            NOW... if you think Hagel stands up to "corporate interests", you would get an argument from me because his record does NOT reflect that. His record reflects two things and two things only: The first is that he cares about vets and the way the military is handled, and that is a good thing. The second is that he is conservative and (as the diary indicates) he votes along conservative lines in almost everything but a few things.

                            He may have said one or two things you like regarding Israel, but, he has never voted against aid to Israel, and according to the Administration, he is fully in line with the President's goals regarding the U.S. - Israel relationship (which has been very positive for the Israelis). I believe you are fooling yourself if you think Hagel is going to be any different than Panetta or Gates.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:40:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Re "You don't even understand" (0+ / 0-)

                            what the "Israel Lobby" (AIPAC and JStreet) really are in the first place. They exist for one purpose. That is to promote a strong relationship between Israel and the U.S."

                            First, it is not reasonable to conflate J Street with AIPAC, which bitterly opposes them.   I have no problem with J Street.

                            And most of my comments above did not even cite AIPAC --other than the reference to Cynthia McKInney being destroyed in the primary.  I cited the billionaires.

                            Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson and the guys who fund FDD are clear what they want:  America's protection of Israel.  
                            But after 7500 American lives have been lost to that "relationship" I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.

                            Neocons say they are focused on US security but that , in my opinion, is a lie.   Has any Neocon suggested reducing Israel's nuclear threat to Iran in exchange for Iran concessions?   To placing Israel's nuclear program under the same controls being pressed on Iran?

                          •  And here we go again... (0+ / 0-)
                            First, it is not reasonable to conflate J Street with AIPAC, which bitterly opposes them.   I have no problem with J Street.

                            And most of my comments above did not even cite AIPAC --other than the reference to Cynthia McKInney being destroyed in the primary.  I cited the billionaires.

                            YOU made blanket statements about the "Israel Lobby" which is really two main lobbying groups - AIPAC and JStreet. THEY are the "Israel Lobby". Period. So yes you did comment on them.

                            As for this:

                            Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson and the guys who fund FDD are clear what they want:  America's protection of Israel.  
                            And? It's their money, they can do as they please. If that's what Saban and Adelson want then that's what they will do with their money. But because they donate to things doesn't mean they run things. Again, How did Adelson do in this election cycle? OH RIGHT... he got crushed. MORE to the point, Adelson and Saban are two people out of hundreds. YET, you... only focus on them.
                            ut after 7500 American lives have been lost to that "relationship" I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.
                            But 7500 American lives have not been lost to that "relationship". You keep insisting on that and you keep getting shot down.

                            7500 American lives have been lost in one war which was a foolish attempt by Conservatives to steal oil and funnel funds to their friends and allies. And in another war to fight against a base and threat to our nation.

                            I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.
                            And with regards to the Occupation that is not what they are interested in. But I don't see any other Billionaires (including the Saudi royal family) doing much about that either.
                            Neocons say they are focused on US security but that , in my opinion, is a lie.   Has any Neocon suggested reducing Israel's nuclear threat to Iran in exchange for Iran concessions?   To placing Israel's nuclear program under the same controls being pressed on Iran?
                            That may be your "opinion" but that doesn't mean you are right. AND it's a totally different issue than the one in discussion.

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:09:24 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I identified who I call the Israel Lobby (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gzodik

                            1) It is not J Street.   I explicitly cited the specific actors and acts I object to and think is not in the national interest.   I don't recall Mearshimer and Walt criticizing J Street either.  Although for some reason those two prominent professors of foreign relations had to go outside the USA to get their article on the Israel Lobby published.  

                            In my opinion, it is a dishonest trick of rhetoric for you to then claim I was criticizing J Street.  

                            2) Re your statement "It's their money, they can do as they please. If that's what Saban and Adelson want then that's what they will do with their money. But because they donate to things doesn't mean they run things."

                            I don't think anyone should be  able to use $millions of campaign donations to send Americans to their  deaths in defense of another country -- as opposed to defense of the USA.   Or engage in conduct abroad that brings attacks down onto the USA.  

                            3) And the idea that people who can dump $150 Million into campaigns don't run things is not reasonable.   Most the disasters which have afflicted this country in the past decade occurred because many Members of Congress were intimidated into silence -- and the ones who weren't were destroyed in the next election.   Yes -- Big Oil drove the Republicans.  But that does not explain why part of the Democratic Party rolled over.

                            Money controls the national microphone.   If you can control the voters perceptions by controlling the information they receive -- if you can greatly hype and misrepresent some things and totally conceal others, then you can determine their vote.  

                            Look at Bill Moyer's "Buying the War" to see how it was done.  Who paid for those  "mistakes"?

                            The Fact that Sheldon Adelson was incompetent in how he spent his money in the last election does not ensure he will be similarly incompetent in the next one.   And he has $20 Billion more.

                          •  Heh... (0+ / 0-)
                            I identified who I call the Israel Lobby
                            No you didn't - you just kept yapping about the "Israel Lobby". All you have done is complain about two Jewish Billionaires AND tried to "Jew Wash" an article about neo-cons being mostly Jewish (although Shavit in Haaretz is wrong, wrong, wrong about that).
                            I don't recall Mearshimer and Walt criticizing J Street either.  Although for some reason those two prominent professors of foreign relations had to go outside the USA to get their article on the Israel Lobby published.  
                            Umm these guys are noted anti-Semitic whack nuts so gives a shit what either one of these jackasses have to say? Not me.
                            In my opinion, it is a dishonest trick of rhetoric for you to then claim I was criticizing J Street.

                            Nope... You said "Israel Lobby". Again JStreet and AIPAC ARE the main part of the "Israel Lobby". If you are going to yak about this stuff then it is important that you get it right. If you wanted to rail against the "Right Wing parts of the Israel Lobby that support Likud and other rightists" then you should have specified. BUT.. you didn't.

                            I don't think anyone should be  able to use $millions of campaign donations to send Americans to their  deaths in defense of another country -- as opposed to defense of the USA.   Or engage in conduct abroad that brings attacks down onto the USA.  
                            First of all, while you may think that... that is NOT the law in the U.S. Our law allows people to donate to causes they think are important (as long as those causes are legal) whether you like that or not is irrelevant.

                            Second of all, I don't think their conduct brought on attacks in the USA. People attack the U.S. for a variety of reasons. But please I would love it if you would elaborate on how 9/11 was caused by two Jewish Billionaires.

                            And the idea that people who can dump $150 Million into campaigns don't run things is not reasonable.
                            And yet Mitt, Newt, Crossroads, and the Republican were all BIG LOSERS in the last election. Unless you would like to tell me just when President Romney was elected and how the Republicans made solid gains in the House and how they recaptured the Senate.

                            Is it your contention that the Democratic Party is fully owned by one large Jewish donor or by Israel in general?

                            And would you say that we are living under a Zionist Occupied Government? Or is it just Saban and Adelson running the whole show?

                            How about you be a bit more clear with what you are saying?

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 06:38:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How much of a voice in politics do families of (0+ / 0-)

                            the soldiers who died in Iraq have?  How about the families of the 911 victims?  

                            Compared to the voice of Haim Saban?

                            Compared to the voice of Sheldon Adelson?

                            Or do you think that the country should be run by those who own it?   Is that a Democratic ideal?

                            And regarding who runs the Democratic Party, I would say it depends on the issue, whose rice bowl is being filled, whose ox is being gored.   Here is how Matt Bai described it in the  New York Times a few years ago:

                            "Every four years, the national party became obsessed with “targeting” — that is, focusing all its efforts on 15 or 20 winnable urban states and pounding them with expensive TV ads. The D.N.C.’s defining purpose was to raise the money for those ads. The national party became, essentially, a service organization for a few hundred wealthy donors, who treated it like their private political club. "

                            http://www.nytimes.com/...

                            But maybe I am wrong --maybe that $3 billion spent in the past election came in as $10 checks from the little people.

                          •  Well I can't argue that we should (0+ / 0-)

                            have campaign finance reform. I am a big proponent of that.

                            But your boy Chuck Hagel is not. He voted against McCain-Feingold. Interesting you would support him even though he stands against the thing you seem to be most railing on about - money influencing politics.

                            Do the victims of 9/11 or vets. from Iraq have as big a voice as Saban, or Adelson... Nope. Of course they don't have as a big a voice as Big Oil, Big Pharma, the Koch Brothers, Bill Gates, the Saudi Royal Family or any of thousands of other people or companies. That is one of the dysfunctional aspects of our government. That you would only focus on two Jewish Billionaires is kinda telling don't you think?

                            I wonder why that is?

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:14:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually I focused on two billionaires who (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gzodik

                            have dumped enormous amounts of money into politics.  Show me any other actor who has dumped $150 Million into politics like Sheldon Adelson.  And Haim Saban beat out other donors to the Democratic Party in the runup to Iraq by a factor of 1200 %.  Their being Jewish has nothing to do with it --other than as THEIR justification for their malign acts.

                            Of course, John McCain has argued that Adelson's donations are  really Chinese money funneled via Macau casinos, not Jewish money.  

                            The one country who has benefited more from our past decades of disasterous war than Israel has been China.   We are cutting our own throat .  An invasion of Iran would cut the carotid.

                            But maybe we should ask Rupert Murdoch's wife.

                            And this whole response had been to address your complaint against Hagel that he is hostile to Israel.  Which several Israeli officials have stated is bullshit.

                            But in looking back over this discussion, I have tried to be fair -- whereas you have engaged in various dishonest rhetorical tricks (misstating my assertions, vague characterizations, lofty claims unsupported by facts, etc.)  Where I have provided citations to news reports about specific actions by specific actors, you have falsely tried to smear me as anti-semitic.  Whereas, as I noted at the beginnning, the American Jewish community has little to no say in this - - and would not support it if they did.

                            But unable to produce facts to support you case, your cabal of buddies instead had to resort to the HR sanction -- which shows what a fraud Daily Kos is when 2 to 4 people can delete 80 some comments.  

                            I say fraud because this is supposed to be a place where people can debate how to achieve the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party.   And the last time I checked, sacrificing  the lives of thousands of common citizens for money do not qualify.  

                            So I will say goodbye for now.  

                          •  AHAHAHAHA this is rich (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            leftynyc
                            Actually I focused on two billionaires who have dumped enormous amounts of money into politics....
                            ....Their being Jewish has nothing to do with it --other than as THEIR justification for their malign acts.
                            Err no.. that is NOT what you did. You TRIED to paint two Jewish individuals as responsible for all of the nations ills. YOU brought up the "Israel Lobby", YOU brought up what you thought was an defining article about Jewish Neo-cons from Haaretz. So NO... you brought up these two individuals in the context of their Jewishness.

                            Now when you realize that your crap isn't flying because really outside of some administrative tolerance for bigotry, the community is not standing for it. SO you retreat to a comment that their "Jewishness had nothing to do with it". Your comments in this diary however, betray your real feelings here.

                            The one country who has benefited more from our past decades of disasterous war than Israel has been China.   We are cutting our own throat .  An invasion of Iran would cut the carotid.
                            Well I don't think it would "cut our carotid" but it would certainly hurt us. I don't favor a military strike on Iran at this time so you'll get no argument from me that it is not a good idea right now.
                            Where I have provided citations to news reports about specific actions by specific actors, you have falsely tried to smear me as anti-semitic.
                            Oh no you don't. I didn't try to "smear" you as anti-Semitic. You ARE anti-Semitic. Your commentary gives you away. You did that too yourself. I just engaged you in enough discussion for that to reveal itself.  Your sense of reasonable conversation was that you were all over the map with multiple charges against Jewish individuals but you never actually dealt with the diary. You also never backed up your support for Hagel except to say that you felt his one quality was to "stand up to the "Israel Lobby".
                            But unable to produce facts to support you case, your cabal of buddies instead had to resort to the HR sanction -- which shows what a fraud Daily Kos is when 2 to 4 people can delete 80 some comments.  
                            I produced a ton of facts. The fact that you didn't read them to acknowledge that is not my fault. Oh and ragging on DKos... At least get your facts straight. Two to four people can produce 10 to 20 Hide Ratings. BUT they can only Hide rate a comment once. It takes 3 Hide rates to hide a comment IF that comment gets no recs. If a comment gets rec'd. then to hide that comment takes a multiple of 3 (like 2 recs. one would need 6 HR's to Hide it.) SO really two people could delete ZERO comments and the most 4 people could delete would be five comments.

                            You should learn the actual rules.

                            As for this:

                            I say fraud because this is supposed to be a place where people can debate how to achieve the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party.
                            When did the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party ever include not supporting Israel, or anti-Semitism? To my knowledge not for a long time. You may want to read the Democratic Party Platform. I am a big supporter of the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party. You might be confusing the Dems. with Greens or something like that.

                            So.. Ta ta... have fun on Stormfront, or davidduke.com or MondoFront or wherever you came from. I am sure they would love to hear how Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson  and Teh IZREEL Lobby are responsible for 9.11....

                            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:28:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  What the fuck? (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  volleyboy1, Brit, hester, livosh1

                  Yeah, all Jews - just like George Bush, Dick Cheney and Condi Rice.

                  Zero.

                  They're not "assault weapons"; just call them "Freedom Sparklers".

                  by MBNYC on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:48:32 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well remember... this guy says (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MBNYC, Brit

                    that opposing the Israel Lobby is a "requirement" for the job of Secretary of Defense. I shit you not...

                    I mean there is this:

                    Who else has Hagel's record of opposition to the Israel Lobby?  In that regard -- one of the needed requirements for the Secretary of Defense
                    OH AND does he realize Hagel's actual voting record on Israel... The guy has never voted against aid to Israel. Not once.

                    Yet, that is and was never the point of this diary. Frankly, while I don't like some of Hagel's comments about Jews, the issues around his disdain for Gay Americans bothers me far more, and honestly as I stated in the diary, I really don't like the fact that a Democratic President felt that the best person to handle a Cabinet Level post like Sec. Def. was a Conservative Republican. That gets me mad.

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:56:13 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I actually (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Brit, volleyboy1, livosh1

                      don't have that much of a problem with Hagel; a Democrat would be better for the obvious reasons, but the idea that the GOP gets a say in Obama's cabinet a la Susan Rice is worse. That's a question of power.

                      None of which has anything to do with this person and his, to be excessively charitable, awkward little Jew-problem. Israel is just a proxy here, I think.

                      They're not "assault weapons"; just call them "Freedom Sparklers".

                      by MBNYC on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:40:08 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I agree with you (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        MBNYC

                        I don't like that this group of GOP Lunatics has anything to say regarding the cabinet. I think their opposition to Hagel is complete Bullshit, they are just pissed he bucked them in 2008. So they make stuff up.

                        My opposition to him is solidly on terms that leftynyc so very well articulated. We don't need a Republican, much less a Conservative Republican running Defense. This appointment merely re-enforces this myth. What we need are strong Democrats in a Democratic Administration running the show.

                        A lot of the support we see from the Hard Left (and Hard Right) is all about some mythical stand about Hagel "putting it to Israel". That is not something he will do or even can do. But in the world of "TEH JOOZ CONTROL TEH GUB'MINT" and "We live in Z.O.G." nothing else matters but that myth.

                        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                        by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:50:11 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site