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View Diary: Musings on Chuck: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (115 comments)

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  •  There is a big difference between "pushing for (2+ / 6-)
    Recommended by:
    jbou, gzodik
    Hidden by:
    blueness, livosh1, lostboyjim, BFSkinner, dhonig, JNEREBEL

    a strong relationship with Israel" and lying the USA into an unnecessary war that killed 4500 Americans, crippled thousands for life and wasted $3 Trillion.  

    Contrary to your claim, "everybody" was NOT doing the lying and it was NOT just Bush and Cheney.  As I've shown.

    And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.  There were many Jews who protested against that invasion.  They, however, don't make a living pandering to Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.

    But keep on.   Your willful distortions, twisting of what I say into something completely different and refusal to face the facts  discredit the Lobby far better than anything I could say.  

    •  Re "Israel is responsible for this" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jbou, gzodik

      I never said that -- as I noted above, the problem is several American billionaires and their money.  

      I did not Bibi's 2002 con --but My fellow progressives in Israel grumble about the money those same US billionaires throw into Israeli elections to get Likud leaders like Bibi elected.  

      Sheldon Adelson even purchased an Israeli newspaper for the purpose -- and is trying to bankrupt opposition newspapers in the Microsoft manner by giving his newspaper away for free.

      •  Yes.. Yes you did (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright, leftynyc

        You claim that "the Lobby" lied us into a War.

        AND the Iraq War was much more than just a few billionaires and their money. It was the Bush administrations effort to 1. Steal Oil, 2. Make friends rich in the Arms business, 3. Enforce Pax Americana in the Middle East, 4. Help their Saudi Friends concerned about Sadaam and his attempts to become the next Gamal Abdel Nasser, 5. to help the Israelis who saw Saddam attempting to bankroll the Palestinian intifada.

        As for the rest of your stuff.... Yeah, Adelson is a shitball... Who denies that? No one. But your bullshit that "The Lobby caused the War" No... channeling the Protocols of the Elders of Zion is NOT acceptable.

        Again, though remind me.... Exactly what does this have to do with the appointment of a Conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:07:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Too funny... Do you really believe the nonsense (4+ / 0-)

      you type?

      Let's start with this:

      There is a big difference between "pushing for a strong relationship with Israel" and lying the USA into an unnecessary war that killed 4500 Americans, crippled thousands for life and wasted $3 Trillion.
      Yes... there is a big difference. The first thing: "pushing for a strong relationship with Israel" is what both AIPAC and J Street do. The second thing (an unnecessary war....) is something that most anti-Semites and Neo-Nazi's like to claim AIPAC and J Street (better known to you folks as the "Israel Lobby") did. But just because they claim it, doesn't mean it happened. Oh, AIPAC may have supported the American action but, there is a difference between supporting and causing. For you to say that they "caused" the war to happen simply echoes C.T. straight out of the Protocols. It's a simplistic, bigoted and incredibly stupid answer to a complicated question.

      Then you say:

      Contrary to your claim, "everybody" was NOT doing the lying and it was NOT just Bush and Cheney.  As I've shown.
      Wait... What? This sentence doesn't even make sense.

      Ok... Everybody in the Administration or who were their good buddies (like Senator Chuck Hagel who voted for this war) was lying. Colin Powell went to the U.N. and lied to the world. All you showed in your links were that there were conservative Jews that supported the War and yes there were conservative Jews that supported the War... there were also MILLIONS of other conservatives that supported war, and the rest of the American population.

      And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.
      And if I were the one doing that, you would be right... but actually it is YOU who is trying to do that. I was not the one that posted a column from Haaretz talking about the "mostly Jewish neo-cons". That was you.

      As for this:

      And trying to spread the guilt for that malign act to the American Jewish community does rank up there with Mein Kampf.  There were many Jews who protested against that invasion.  They, however, don't make a living pandering to Sheldon Adelson and Haim Saban.
      Yes many Jews and other Americans did protest that war

      Just for your info. sake - American support for war with Iraq was 62% in 2002. In March of '03 that number was up to 72%.

      More telling was this (From Gallup)

      And here you go regarding an overview of polling:

      HOWEVER... even more to the point. You want to keep talking about AIPAC... Well here you go, Now.. who does it look like was doing the pushing here... Why the Bush Administration that's who.

      Oh and there is this:

      AIPAC never supported or lobbied for the war in Iraq.[15] According to a columnist in the Washington Post, "Once it was clear that the Bush administration was determined to go to war [in Iraq], AIPAC cheered from the sidelines".[14] Some observers suggested the official silence owed to concerns that linking Israel to the war "could alienate friendly Arab states by suggesting that the war is driven by Israel's interests."[16]
      Of course your ultimate projection here:  
      Your willful distortions, twisting of what I say into something completely different and refusal to face the facts  discredit the Lobby far better than anything I could say.  
      Is a sad comment on the fact that really you spent all this time yapping about "the lobby" only to get hammered time and time by the facts. The only person distorting anything is you.

      You guys have to really do better next time.

      Oh and in the end - what does this have to do with Chuck Hagel and support for the nomination of a conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

      Right... it has nothing to do with it.

      "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

      by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 12:54:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  WHO promoted the invasion of Iraq? (1+ / 1-)
        Recommended by:
        jbou
        Hidden by:
        leftynyc

        You make accusations based on vague statements in order to duck and  ignore the facts.

        1) Bush and Cheney:  check
        2) Foundation for Defense of Democracy --funded by Israel Lobby billionaires: check
        3) Judith Miller of the New York Times and the Times publisher?  Check
        4) The Neocon propagandists cited by Thomas Friedman in the Haaretz interview :  Check.   Tom said the war would not have occurred if not for their propaganda.  And while Haaretz noted that most of them are Jewish, I noted that they live off the charity --and hence are owned by -- right wing Gentile billionaires Rupert Murdoch and Phillip Anschutz.
        5) Kenneth Pollack , employed by Israeli billionaire Haim Saban:  Check
        I can give you several liberal commentators who all testify that they supported the invasion because they trusted Pollack
        6) Fox NEws: check

        And if you look at the Sept 2007 Haaretz interview of Haim Saban, he stated explicitly that he feels it is his duty to use his billions to influence US politics and ensure that the USA continues to protect Israel.   But , like Sheldon Adelson, I see no where in which Haim says he has a duty to America.

        I never said J Street was involved in promoting the war -- in fact, I noted that George Soros funded the opposition.  So why did you make that false accusation?

        •  You keep talking about the Israel Lobby (2+ / 0-)

          which J Street is part of. Don't try to weasel out.

          Did a few billionaires support and cheer for the war with Iraq? Whoever said they didn't? Show me one place where I claimed they didn't? Just one.

          A lot of other people than the ones you noted promoted War with Iraq as well. But you only keep talking about Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson. I wonder why? Well... no really I don't.

          As for this:

          But , like Sheldon Adelson, I see no where in which Haim says he has a duty to America.
          WTF... Jewish Billionaires now need to swear loyalty oaths. Do you demand that of any other billionaires out there or just Jews?

          The fact of the matter is that there were a lot of factors that led up to the Iraq War, but, it "the Lobby" did not force ANYONE into a war. If anyone did it was Conservatives led by George Bush and Dick Cheney.

          And again: - what does this have to do with Chuck Hagel and support for the nomination of a conservative Republican by a Democratic President?

          Right... it has nothing to do with it.

          "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

          by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:34:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  HR for non-sequitor (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      volleyboy1

      Oh, I guess it's anti-semetic too (or as I saw in another diary today: you're comment; its anti-semantic).

      Minority rights should never be subject to majority vote.

      by lostboyjim on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 05:56:58 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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