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View Diary: Musings on Chuck: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly (115 comments)

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  •  Nonsense... (0+ / 0-)

    Well not nonsense if you believe that the Israel Lobby is controlling America.. but honestly that is sort of a ridiculous belief unless of course you subscribe to the Z.O.G. theory. Is that what you believe?

    You give the Israel Lobby far more power than they have. And if they were so all powerful... How did the Hagel nomination even happen... UNLESS... They actually either:

    A. Don't really have the power you ascribe to them or

    B. Don't care whether Hagel is Sec. Def or not.

    Oh and can you show me in the job description where:

    Past history shows that a willingness to stand up to the immense pressure and influence of the Israel Lobby is a requirement for that.
    So "standing up to the Israel Lobby" is a requirement for the job of Secretary of Defense. I must've missed that when looking up the position. (/snark). Of course, in the real world, it's not a requirement because in all honesty the "Israel Lobby" is the all encompassing evil you make it out to be.

    As for Pelosi and Harman... There seemed to be a conflict in power. Here is a perspective from Salon

    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

    by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:07:52 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  If the Israel Lobby was all powerful our soldiers (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gzodik

      would be dying in Iran.   It is a major power but obviously there are others.   That doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be opposed.

      As I noted above, Bush and Cheney largely worked for Big Oil -- Cheney and Republicans were clever enough to kneecap Democratic opposition to a bloody oil grab by selling it as a defense of Israel.

      Knowing that either the Democrats would cave or massive  donors like Haim Saban would defect to the Republicans, causing the Democratic Party to dry up and go the way of the Whigs.

      The Salon article is misleading in several respects.   The author evidently didn't realize that Nancy Pelosi had access to all information the House Intel Committee received as Speaker of the House.  Harman had no special powers over Pelosi.

      Nancy Pelosi and two Democratic Senators on the Senate's Intel Committee (Diane Feinstein, Robert Graham) publicly warned prior to the invasion of Iraq that they had seen no evidence that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat.

      In contrast, Jane Harman rolled over for the Neocons and did not support Pelosi/Graham/Feinstein.   As the Ranking Minority member on HPSCI, she should have done the critical analysis before the war that the Iraq Commission did after the war.   There are two reasons, in my opinion, why she did not.  

      One is that Boeing in her district had received a massive contract to build the next generation of spy satellites (FIA) and wasted $10 BILLION (and 5 years) before finally losing the contract in 2005 because they could not perform.  From 2001-2005, Cheney was holding a hammer over Boeing that he could drop if Harman didn't play ball.

      The other reason is that, according to TIME,  Harman was in the tank for Israeli billionaire Haim Saban:

      http://www.time.com/...

      "Saban has donated at least $3,000 to Harman's campaign, according to Federal Election Commission records, and the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, which he sponsors at the prestigious Brookings Institution, boasts Harman among its biggest fans. "When the Saban Center talks, I listen," Harman said at a Saban Center briefing in February on U.S. strategy in Iraq. Harman quipped that, in order to attend the session at Brookings, she had to "blow off" a senior intelligence official's appearance before a House committee. "

      NOTE:  TIME's other claims in that story -- that Harman cut a deal to get two AIPAC guys off the hook on spying charges -- were never proven.  

      •  OK repeat after me.... Haim Saban DOES NOT (0+ / 0-)

        run the U.S. Government. Neither does Sheldon Adelson... Yet you keep prattling on about them.

        The fact of the matter is, that Big Oil had far more to do with Iraq than anyone else. Second in line, were the weapons and defense manufacturers. Israel was far down the line.

        You see conspiracies where none exist... Well none exist except on whack conspiracy sites and updated versions of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Do not think that anyone is fooled by your cynical attempts to focus on a few Jews as the cause the for the entire Iraq War. We have seen this before time and time again through history.

        Your story about Harman... btw, reflects that influence of Defense Contractors NOT Haim Saban.

        Now I get that on stormfront, or davidduke.com, or MondoFront... this shit flies. But you aren't at any of those sites. You are here on DKos and we know this crap when we see it.

        You don't even understand what the "Israel Lobby" (AIPAC and JStreet) really are in the first place. They exist for one purpose. That is to promote a strong relationship between Israel and the U.S.

        Oh and hey... Looks like my diary was correct in one other aspect of things. Here is YNET (an Israeli paper) regarding Hagel

        In fact, Israel has nothing to do with Obama's choice. Obama's Israel and Iran policy hasn't changed. His decision is based on the belief that Hagel will stand strong in the face of pressure against major cuts in the defense budget.

        Hagel himself is far from being anti-Israel. But to win the Senate's trust he will have to convince at least 10 Democrat senators, Jewish and non-Jewish Israel supporters, to remove their objection to his appointment.

        Hagel made the first step in this direction in an interview for a Nebraska paper and in private talks.

        The White House examined Hagel's voting history regarding Israel and Iran and came to the conclusion that as far as US-Israel military cooperation and sanctions against Iran go, Hagel's views are in line with the president's.

        As we all know... President Obama's record on Israel is impeccable with the highest level of security cooperation between the U.S. and Israel that has ever existed. The President has had a strong record in this and in the diplomatic arena of supporting Israel, and now according to Hagel and the President, he is line with that.

        But, I still don't care - I don't like his nomination because I think there are Democrats who are more qualified and I think that they not some Conservative Republican should have been "tapped" for the job.

        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

        by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:47:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Actually, the Defense Contractors were unhappy (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gzodik

          with the Iraq War -- but not with the "War on Terror".

          Iraq sucked a lot of money out of the Procurement Budget and diverted it to Operations and Personnel.   Iraq was an Infantry war , not a glamous High Tech  war.  If you divert a lot of money to bullets, provisions, soldiers salaries, medical care for wounded troops, fuel,  etc etc then there is less for hugely expensive F35 fighters.  And the big profits are in the F35 fighters, not MREs and ammo.

          It gets especially difficult if your guys in the Pentagon -- Air Force Chief of Staff and Secretary of Air Force -- get fired by SecDef Gates because they are not contributing to the current war and are spending money on other things.

          However, there obviously is a tight link between Big Oil and Big Defense.   There would be a lot less support for Big D if not for Big Oil's foreign investments.   Although I think it is idiotic to support a business in which automobile gasoline costs us $40 per gallon -- $3.70 at and the pump and another $36 per gallon to control the Middle East.

          Re your other point, the US is run by the billionaires who just dumped $3 Billion in to the last election.   Some of them think their policy re Israel is important -- and the rest are happy to humor them so long as the rice bowls of the others are not effected.  

          But when American lives are being lost, it is no longer  just politics and money.  

          •  Now you are making a totally different argument (0+ / 0-)

            Why? Probably because you realize that the argument that the "Israel Lobby controls Washington" doesn't fly here. And no you can't even ease into that nonsense here so don't.

            Now... if you want to say that money plays major role in politics, you will find absolutely no disagreement from me. I mean look at the influence of the Koch Brothers, or Big Oil, or Big Pharma... Those are all major players.

            The decision to push through Citizens United I think was a major disaster. Oh and btw, for your info. Your guy Chuck Hagel VOTED AGAINST Campaign Finance reform in McCain-Feingold. So, I wouldn't be so sure that he will stand against any lobbying money from Israel or otherwise.

            YOU however have spent this entire diary arguing about how the "Israel Lobby" was the cause of our War with Iraq and how Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson ran our government. NOW... after seeing that as they say "that dog doesn't hunt", you are changing things up to recognize that it is NOT just two Jewish rich guys but a whole lot of rich guys who honestly have bigger "fish to fry" than Israel.

            NOW... if you think Hagel stands up to "corporate interests", you would get an argument from me because his record does NOT reflect that. His record reflects two things and two things only: The first is that he cares about vets and the way the military is handled, and that is a good thing. The second is that he is conservative and (as the diary indicates) he votes along conservative lines in almost everything but a few things.

            He may have said one or two things you like regarding Israel, but, he has never voted against aid to Israel, and according to the Administration, he is fully in line with the President's goals regarding the U.S. - Israel relationship (which has been very positive for the Israelis). I believe you are fooling yourself if you think Hagel is going to be any different than Panetta or Gates.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:40:38 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Re "You don't even understand" (0+ / 0-)

          what the "Israel Lobby" (AIPAC and JStreet) really are in the first place. They exist for one purpose. That is to promote a strong relationship between Israel and the U.S."

          First, it is not reasonable to conflate J Street with AIPAC, which bitterly opposes them.   I have no problem with J Street.

          And most of my comments above did not even cite AIPAC --other than the reference to Cynthia McKInney being destroyed in the primary.  I cited the billionaires.

          Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson and the guys who fund FDD are clear what they want:  America's protection of Israel.  
          But after 7500 American lives have been lost to that "relationship" I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.

          Neocons say they are focused on US security but that , in my opinion, is a lie.   Has any Neocon suggested reducing Israel's nuclear threat to Iran in exchange for Iran concessions?   To placing Israel's nuclear program under the same controls being pressed on Iran?

          •  And here we go again... (0+ / 0-)
            First, it is not reasonable to conflate J Street with AIPAC, which bitterly opposes them.   I have no problem with J Street.

            And most of my comments above did not even cite AIPAC --other than the reference to Cynthia McKInney being destroyed in the primary.  I cited the billionaires.

            YOU made blanket statements about the "Israel Lobby" which is really two main lobbying groups - AIPAC and JStreet. THEY are the "Israel Lobby". Period. So yes you did comment on them.

            As for this:

            Haim Saban, Sheldon Adelson and the guys who fund FDD are clear what they want:  America's protection of Israel.  
            And? It's their money, they can do as they please. If that's what Saban and Adelson want then that's what they will do with their money. But because they donate to things doesn't mean they run things. Again, How did Adelson do in this election cycle? OH RIGHT... he got crushed. MORE to the point, Adelson and Saban are two people out of hundreds. YET, you... only focus on them.
            ut after 7500 American lives have been lost to that "relationship" I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.
            But 7500 American lives have not been lost to that "relationship". You keep insisting on that and you keep getting shot down.

            7500 American lives have been lost in one war which was a foolish attempt by Conservatives to steal oil and funnel funds to their friends and allies. And in another war to fight against a base and threat to our nation.

            I don't see them reining in their Likud politicans to halt the ongoing grab of West Bank and other acts that serve to recruit for Al Qaeda.
            And with regards to the Occupation that is not what they are interested in. But I don't see any other Billionaires (including the Saudi royal family) doing much about that either.
            Neocons say they are focused on US security but that , in my opinion, is a lie.   Has any Neocon suggested reducing Israel's nuclear threat to Iran in exchange for Iran concessions?   To placing Israel's nuclear program under the same controls being pressed on Iran?
            That may be your "opinion" but that doesn't mean you are right. AND it's a totally different issue than the one in discussion.

            "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

            by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:09:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I identified who I call the Israel Lobby (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              gzodik

              1) It is not J Street.   I explicitly cited the specific actors and acts I object to and think is not in the national interest.   I don't recall Mearshimer and Walt criticizing J Street either.  Although for some reason those two prominent professors of foreign relations had to go outside the USA to get their article on the Israel Lobby published.  

              In my opinion, it is a dishonest trick of rhetoric for you to then claim I was criticizing J Street.  

              2) Re your statement "It's their money, they can do as they please. If that's what Saban and Adelson want then that's what they will do with their money. But because they donate to things doesn't mean they run things."

              I don't think anyone should be  able to use $millions of campaign donations to send Americans to their  deaths in defense of another country -- as opposed to defense of the USA.   Or engage in conduct abroad that brings attacks down onto the USA.  

              3) And the idea that people who can dump $150 Million into campaigns don't run things is not reasonable.   Most the disasters which have afflicted this country in the past decade occurred because many Members of Congress were intimidated into silence -- and the ones who weren't were destroyed in the next election.   Yes -- Big Oil drove the Republicans.  But that does not explain why part of the Democratic Party rolled over.

              Money controls the national microphone.   If you can control the voters perceptions by controlling the information they receive -- if you can greatly hype and misrepresent some things and totally conceal others, then you can determine their vote.  

              Look at Bill Moyer's "Buying the War" to see how it was done.  Who paid for those  "mistakes"?

              The Fact that Sheldon Adelson was incompetent in how he spent his money in the last election does not ensure he will be similarly incompetent in the next one.   And he has $20 Billion more.

              •  Heh... (0+ / 0-)
                I identified who I call the Israel Lobby
                No you didn't - you just kept yapping about the "Israel Lobby". All you have done is complain about two Jewish Billionaires AND tried to "Jew Wash" an article about neo-cons being mostly Jewish (although Shavit in Haaretz is wrong, wrong, wrong about that).
                I don't recall Mearshimer and Walt criticizing J Street either.  Although for some reason those two prominent professors of foreign relations had to go outside the USA to get their article on the Israel Lobby published.  
                Umm these guys are noted anti-Semitic whack nuts so gives a shit what either one of these jackasses have to say? Not me.
                In my opinion, it is a dishonest trick of rhetoric for you to then claim I was criticizing J Street.

                Nope... You said "Israel Lobby". Again JStreet and AIPAC ARE the main part of the "Israel Lobby". If you are going to yak about this stuff then it is important that you get it right. If you wanted to rail against the "Right Wing parts of the Israel Lobby that support Likud and other rightists" then you should have specified. BUT.. you didn't.

                I don't think anyone should be  able to use $millions of campaign donations to send Americans to their  deaths in defense of another country -- as opposed to defense of the USA.   Or engage in conduct abroad that brings attacks down onto the USA.  
                First of all, while you may think that... that is NOT the law in the U.S. Our law allows people to donate to causes they think are important (as long as those causes are legal) whether you like that or not is irrelevant.

                Second of all, I don't think their conduct brought on attacks in the USA. People attack the U.S. for a variety of reasons. But please I would love it if you would elaborate on how 9/11 was caused by two Jewish Billionaires.

                And the idea that people who can dump $150 Million into campaigns don't run things is not reasonable.
                And yet Mitt, Newt, Crossroads, and the Republican were all BIG LOSERS in the last election. Unless you would like to tell me just when President Romney was elected and how the Republicans made solid gains in the House and how they recaptured the Senate.

                Is it your contention that the Democratic Party is fully owned by one large Jewish donor or by Israel in general?

                And would you say that we are living under a Zionist Occupied Government? Or is it just Saban and Adelson running the whole show?

                How about you be a bit more clear with what you are saying?

                "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 06:38:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  How much of a voice in politics do families of (0+ / 0-)

                  the soldiers who died in Iraq have?  How about the families of the 911 victims?  

                  Compared to the voice of Haim Saban?

                  Compared to the voice of Sheldon Adelson?

                  Or do you think that the country should be run by those who own it?   Is that a Democratic ideal?

                  And regarding who runs the Democratic Party, I would say it depends on the issue, whose rice bowl is being filled, whose ox is being gored.   Here is how Matt Bai described it in the  New York Times a few years ago:

                  "Every four years, the national party became obsessed with “targeting” — that is, focusing all its efforts on 15 or 20 winnable urban states and pounding them with expensive TV ads. The D.N.C.’s defining purpose was to raise the money for those ads. The national party became, essentially, a service organization for a few hundred wealthy donors, who treated it like their private political club. "

                  http://www.nytimes.com/...

                  But maybe I am wrong --maybe that $3 billion spent in the past election came in as $10 checks from the little people.

                  •  Well I can't argue that we should (0+ / 0-)

                    have campaign finance reform. I am a big proponent of that.

                    But your boy Chuck Hagel is not. He voted against McCain-Feingold. Interesting you would support him even though he stands against the thing you seem to be most railing on about - money influencing politics.

                    Do the victims of 9/11 or vets. from Iraq have as big a voice as Saban, or Adelson... Nope. Of course they don't have as a big a voice as Big Oil, Big Pharma, the Koch Brothers, Bill Gates, the Saudi Royal Family or any of thousands of other people or companies. That is one of the dysfunctional aspects of our government. That you would only focus on two Jewish Billionaires is kinda telling don't you think?

                    I wonder why that is?

                    "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                    by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:14:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Actually I focused on two billionaires who (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      gzodik

                      have dumped enormous amounts of money into politics.  Show me any other actor who has dumped $150 Million into politics like Sheldon Adelson.  And Haim Saban beat out other donors to the Democratic Party in the runup to Iraq by a factor of 1200 %.  Their being Jewish has nothing to do with it --other than as THEIR justification for their malign acts.

                      Of course, John McCain has argued that Adelson's donations are  really Chinese money funneled via Macau casinos, not Jewish money.  

                      The one country who has benefited more from our past decades of disasterous war than Israel has been China.   We are cutting our own throat .  An invasion of Iran would cut the carotid.

                      But maybe we should ask Rupert Murdoch's wife.

                      And this whole response had been to address your complaint against Hagel that he is hostile to Israel.  Which several Israeli officials have stated is bullshit.

                      But in looking back over this discussion, I have tried to be fair -- whereas you have engaged in various dishonest rhetorical tricks (misstating my assertions, vague characterizations, lofty claims unsupported by facts, etc.)  Where I have provided citations to news reports about specific actions by specific actors, you have falsely tried to smear me as anti-semitic.  Whereas, as I noted at the beginnning, the American Jewish community has little to no say in this - - and would not support it if they did.

                      But unable to produce facts to support you case, your cabal of buddies instead had to resort to the HR sanction -- which shows what a fraud Daily Kos is when 2 to 4 people can delete 80 some comments.  

                      I say fraud because this is supposed to be a place where people can debate how to achieve the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party.   And the last time I checked, sacrificing  the lives of thousands of common citizens for money do not qualify.  

                      So I will say goodbye for now.  

                      •  AHAHAHAHA this is rich (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        leftynyc
                        Actually I focused on two billionaires who have dumped enormous amounts of money into politics....
                        ....Their being Jewish has nothing to do with it --other than as THEIR justification for their malign acts.
                        Err no.. that is NOT what you did. You TRIED to paint two Jewish individuals as responsible for all of the nations ills. YOU brought up the "Israel Lobby", YOU brought up what you thought was an defining article about Jewish Neo-cons from Haaretz. So NO... you brought up these two individuals in the context of their Jewishness.

                        Now when you realize that your crap isn't flying because really outside of some administrative tolerance for bigotry, the community is not standing for it. SO you retreat to a comment that their "Jewishness had nothing to do with it". Your comments in this diary however, betray your real feelings here.

                        The one country who has benefited more from our past decades of disasterous war than Israel has been China.   We are cutting our own throat .  An invasion of Iran would cut the carotid.
                        Well I don't think it would "cut our carotid" but it would certainly hurt us. I don't favor a military strike on Iran at this time so you'll get no argument from me that it is not a good idea right now.
                        Where I have provided citations to news reports about specific actions by specific actors, you have falsely tried to smear me as anti-semitic.
                        Oh no you don't. I didn't try to "smear" you as anti-Semitic. You ARE anti-Semitic. Your commentary gives you away. You did that too yourself. I just engaged you in enough discussion for that to reveal itself.  Your sense of reasonable conversation was that you were all over the map with multiple charges against Jewish individuals but you never actually dealt with the diary. You also never backed up your support for Hagel except to say that you felt his one quality was to "stand up to the "Israel Lobby".
                        But unable to produce facts to support you case, your cabal of buddies instead had to resort to the HR sanction -- which shows what a fraud Daily Kos is when 2 to 4 people can delete 80 some comments.  
                        I produced a ton of facts. The fact that you didn't read them to acknowledge that is not my fault. Oh and ragging on DKos... At least get your facts straight. Two to four people can produce 10 to 20 Hide Ratings. BUT they can only Hide rate a comment once. It takes 3 Hide rates to hide a comment IF that comment gets no recs. If a comment gets rec'd. then to hide that comment takes a multiple of 3 (like 2 recs. one would need 6 HR's to Hide it.) SO really two people could delete ZERO comments and the most 4 people could delete would be five comments.

                        You should learn the actual rules.

                        As for this:

                        I say fraud because this is supposed to be a place where people can debate how to achieve the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party.
                        When did the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party ever include not supporting Israel, or anti-Semitism? To my knowledge not for a long time. You may want to read the Democratic Party Platform. I am a big supporter of the ideals and goals of the Democratic Party. You might be confusing the Dems. with Greens or something like that.

                        So.. Ta ta... have fun on Stormfront, or davidduke.com or MondoFront or wherever you came from. I am sure they would love to hear how Haim Saban and Sheldon Adelson  and Teh IZREEL Lobby are responsible for 9.11....

                        "'Touch it dude' - President Barack Obama"

                        by volleyboy1 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:28:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

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