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View Diary: Mint the Coin vs the Debt Ceiling (26 comments)

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  •  I think I can do a better job than you based (0+ / 0-)

    on your comments in this thread.

    In this last comment you simply repeat what you said in the first one. Repeating the same thing and expecting different results usually is not a smart thing to do.

    And in both cases you failed to comprehend what I wrote in my first comment.

    In your mind, you seem to think that the MMT approach will necessarily be inserted into the current economic model. That model makes no plans, sets no goals for our population. It does not have a way to define the common good. This is a great part of the problem because the few people who grab control of the current government do what they please and leave the rest of us out.

    But families go another way. They make plans and they care about each member of the family. What is more, they make generational plans, they are not limited to the here and now (although the current system often forces that on them).

    Perhaps you should consider that the reason the family model persists for most humans is that it works. These humans, when they say that government should be run like a family, really mean it. They are thinking of the things I just listed above. So stop trying to manipulate people because you think they misunderstand. You are the one who misunderstands.

    Let me add, that I can see far down the road as to where MMT can take us, and I have been waiting for you and the other MMT'ers to catch up. You will, I am sure, but I wish to hell you would do it soon.

    Time is wasting and lives are at risk.

    So, leave me alone, and try to think that just because some idea is new to you does not mean that it is new to me, and just because you cannot think of a way to do something does not mean that I can't.

    In the aftermath of WWII I heard veterans talk about government funding of national projects to build a better America, and these men could not see why the government could not just print the money. This is after all, what MMT is proposing. And even before that Keynes wrote that the primary goal of government should be to make lives easier for its citizens, including full employment paid for by printing money. So the MMT idea is not new. I repeat it is not new. And neither is the family model.

    Also, in my working life I designed large scale systems for large scale enterprises. In order to be successful I had to devise ways to convince my customers to buy my systems. The best way to to do this was to explain things in the terms that mattered to them. That is what you should do. I have watched the MMT'ers on video, I have read their papers and some of their books, and they do a pretty poor job of selling their ideas. But letsgetitdone had done a great job and he is getting better.

    Have a nice day.

    Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

    by hestal on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:14:18 PM PST

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    •  I'm going to try one more time. (0+ / 0-)

      First of all I did make a mistake in responding to one person and when someone else pointed it out I saw what I had done and corrected myself, which I am more than happy to do. If you read the thread from my previous post on this subject, which included a very long and really interesting thread, you will see that I am happy to learn from others and to be corrected. I simply do not agree with you and neither does the MMT community.

      You said;

      In your mind, you seem to think that the MMT approach will necessarily be inserted into the current economic model. That model makes no plans, sets no goals for our population. It does not have a way to define the common good. This is a great part of the problem because the few people who grab control of the current government do what they please and leave the rest of us out.
      This is factually incorrect. MMT is not an insert into a "current economic model," it IS an economic model. Additionally, like all economic models, it is not policy it is a model. It is the model that has emerged since Bretton Woods, plain and simple.

      Your philosophy about families is fine and it is all very cuddly but it is not economics. You sound like all those in the GOP who deny science because they are telling themselves some other story. The earth is more than 6000 years old and MMT is how our economy has been running ever since the Nixon Shock. That economic policies have changed and that MMT has not been well understood by those who received their training in economics prior to the elimination of the gold/silver standard is not a surprise. It is a process. That PCS is currently under discussion is an indicator that the principles of MMT are becoming more widely understood, disseminated and that the policy space within the model is better understood than it once was.

      Let me add, that I can see far down the road as to where MMT can take us, and I have been waiting for you and the other MMT'ers to catch up. You will, I am sure, but I wish to hell you would do it soon.
      Oooooo - we are all very impressed.

      LetsGetItDone IS doing an amazing job as are Dr. Kelton and Bill Mitchell and many, many others. I fall at their feet but that doesn't mean I don't have something to add. When I posted this, LGID had not yet posted the first of his "small ball" posts. If someone, not you because you clearly have problems, reads those (and they are awesome) and they also read this, it is easy to see that this post is the much, much, MUCH simplified version of what LGID is doing. A huge percentage of people will struggle trying to get through LGID's posts. They are GREAT but they are dense. Without introducing any narrative at all I am just providing a "Small Ball for Dummies" version. Period. That's my only goal. I'm not trying to be LGID because he has that covered.

      I am repeating what LGID and everyone else in the MMT community has been saying when I say (again, because you really, really, REALLY don't get it) the federal government is nothing, nothing, NOTHING at ALL like your beloved family and if you can't see beyond that box than I am sorry but those limitations are your own.

      The MMT community is, progressively, developing a narrative. The reason Arliss' last post was copied around the world to so many of the major MMT blogs and sites was precisely because it is considered the, as they (not I) said,"MMT for Dummies" overview. MMT economists have spent a long time just talking amongst themselves and very, very little time trying to explain themselves to non-economists. I am willing to wait while they develop a public narrative that is simple yet still encompass' the ground truths of the model.

      BTW - my background in engineering, manufacturing,  computing and international marketing is pretty massive - likely trumping the one you are trying to use to intimidate me but I write under the auspices of a rabbit for a reason and I'm going to elect to stay that way. Oh - and the manufacturing company I own grew more than 50% last year...in a down economy, so don't give me the marketing crap either. You are trapped in long ago times and the world is moving forward with or without you. Hang on.

      "When in doubt, do the brave thing." - Jan Smuts

      by bunnygirl60 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:23:24 PM PST

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      •  Go away, kid you are beginning to annoy me. (0+ / 0-)

        Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

        by hestal on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:33:30 PM PST

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        •  Right back at 'cha. (0+ / 0-)

          "When in doubt, do the brave thing." - Jan Smuts

          by bunnygirl60 on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 03:35:21 PM PST

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          •  Hestal (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Calgacus

            was born before WW-II and has a slightly longer perspective than you or me, who are "boomers" - so do look at it from his perspective.

            •  Sorry I got hear late (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Calgacus

              MMTers are understandably skittish about doing anything but debunk the family model However, it is used from time to time. I've seen Warren do it at talks where he asks people to think about a mother and father who have control over a fiat currency, and also children who must work at household chores to earn the fiat currency so they can get goodies. So, MMTers will use a household analogy from time to time when it's properly modified.

              Also, Randy Wray recently had a reframing post which adopted Bruce Springsteen's meme "we take care of our own." That is a family-based meme. I've used it also in this post.

              •  It all depends on who your customers are... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Calgacus

                If you want to sell MMT to ordinary citizens then use the family model. I can't say what to use if you want to sell it to other schools of economic thought, but I can say that such an effort is largely a waste of time.

                I guess I would like to know just what you MMTers are after. Is this simply an intramural argument between economists? If it is, then color me "gone."

                But if you are trying to change the world then go straight to the People.

                Right now this whole kerfuffle feels like a purely academic argument. I got sick and tired of those in graduate school fifty years ago. I was at the board explaining a proof of a theorem in Ring and Group Theory class when I was seized with an overpowering urge to go water skiing. I turned to my professor, thanked him for his time, and went straight to the administration building. I withdrew from school and within two hours I was on the lake. It was a beautiful day, the water was like glass, the sun was warm, and the girl driving my boat was a knockout. Best decision I ever made.

                My father, who had the outlook of a philosopher, used to say that there are three eternal questions which engage mankind: Where did I come from? Where am I going? What should I do while I am here?

                My mother, who had the outlook of an engineer, would counter with her four eternal questions: Where do we stand? How did we get here? Where do we want to go? How do we get there from here?

                I would often talk to my father about the myriad answers to his questions, and it was lots of fun. But he always closed the discussion with a reminder that I should answer his third eternal question, What should I do while I am here? by trying to answer Mother's four eternal questions. They were wise.

                Might and Right are always fighting, in our youth it seems exciting. Right is always nearly winning, Might can hardly keep from grinning. -- Clarence Day

                by hestal on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 04:34:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

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