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View Diary: White House task force reviewing gun violence options pushes to meet end of month deadline (235 comments)

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  •  And any dialogue will have to include an (0+ / 0-)

    attempt to quantify how many gun deaths we have now and how many we are hoping to get to if/when these regulations get passed into laws.

    While I think all of us would love to see the number of annual deaths approach zero, we will have to have realistic expectations (whatever that means for each of us, for example are we aiming to reduce the 32k annual gun deaths by 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, or more?).  In the end we must as a society weigh the value of the inconveniences to gun owners versus lives lost.  

    We also must talk about the 200 plus injured every single day (remember Gabby Giffords?) as those people seem to get lost in many conversations. To that end, insurance or a tax used to compensate survivors would be a great idea.

    Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

    by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 01:01:43 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Since Assault rifles (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Greg Dworkin, fuzzyguy

      count for a tiny fraction of gun deaths in America, we will be looking for a very tiny drop in gun deaths which is another good reason to stop messing with a horrible law like the assault rifle ban.

      Reducing the size of clips available to all rifles and handguns however would be a much smarter approach.

      •  doing both might be on the menu (3+ / 0-)

        and much more, including mental health issues, background checks, etc...

        Your point about expecting assault weapons alone to be the answer is well taken.

        "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

        by Greg Dworkin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:29:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you missed my point (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzyguy

          Banning assault rifles is a non starter for me and many hunters.  Just because someone feels a gun looks scary when in fact it has a tiny caliber bullet makes no sense to demand it be banned.  I am 100% against an assault rifle ban.

          I would be for a ban on 30 round magazines however.  They serve no purpose.

          •  no I didn't miss the point (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DefendOurConstitution

            1. despite your objections, AWB still might be on the menu. OTOH it may or may not make the final cut.
            2. the rest is serious stuff that must be included.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:14:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  by the way (0+ / 0-)

            good summary of gun polling here. Some things have more support than others.

            AWB is not top of popularity list, though poll by poll you get different results.

            I get you don't like it; it looks like a 50-50 proposition with the public. High capacity magazine ban, background checks are an easier sell.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:22:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Just stick with the easy sell stuff (0+ / 0-)

              and you won't loose us hunters.

              An AR-15 with a 10 round clip is no difference then my granpa's old semi-auto except his was a .30-06 while my AR is a tiny .223.

              The 30 round clip is the biggest issue for AR's currently.

              With that said, we are still discussing a type of gun that is responsible for almost none of the gun violence in this country statistically.  Go for handguns and shotguns if you really want to make a dent in gun violence since they account for most of it.

        •  What would reasonable... (0+ / 0-)

          ...mental health and background checks which don't interfere substantially with the right of the average citizen to keep and bear arms be?

          I can see that private party transfers should include a background check. A free instant check by the seller via the Internet would likely not be too burdensome -- especially if the government kept no record of successful checks beyond an encrypted version that the seller and buyer could subsequently decrypt using their own keys to prove the check was done and that the person passed.

          Pretty much, the types of limitations imposed on voter id laws should apply roughly to checks you speak of. The bar might be higher, but the right to vote and the right to keep and bear arms are of equal priority as far as I can see and anything that is very burdensome seems to be a violation of the underlying right.

          As far as I can tell, none of this would have affected Newtown or most other cases as the perpetrators have, at least mostly, not been under treatment for mental health issues.

          I could see the argument, although would disagree with, that perhaps all mental health professionals should be required to report to the Federal government all those under treatment and/or prescribed medication for a range of mental health issues. This could support firearms background checks and other purposes such as identifying possible suspects in a variety of crimes.

          •  I don't know what would have prevented newtown (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            tytalus

            but any steps to reduce gun violence are worth considering.

            "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." - Groucho Marx

            by Greg Dworkin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:37:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Let's remember, to date 588 shooting deaths (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      DefendOurConstitution

      since Newtown- in our country!  Time for change people.

      •  Does not even count suicides, action cannot come (0+ / 0-)

        too soon!

        Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

        by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:41:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  If that doesn't count suicides... (0+ / 0-)

          ...this must be an anomaly (perhaps seasonal?). Where did this number come from?

          Today is the eighth day of the year (not quite over in fact). There are approximately 365.25 days in a year.

          Data (pg. 42) for the United States shows (data for 2011 is preliminary):

          • Annual deaths via firearms (all causes): 32,163 (2011), 31,672 (2010)
          • Annual suicides via firearms: 19,766 (2011), 19,392 (2010)
          • Computed non suicide deaths via firearms: 12,397 (2011), 12,280 (2010)
          • "Per Day" suicides via firearm: 33.9 (2011), 33.6 (2010)
          • "First Eight Days" of suicide via firearms: 271.5 (2011), 269.0 (2010)

          Thus, if there have been 588 shooting deaths to date in 2013 including (I assume) crimes and accidents but excluding suicides and such events are uniformly distributed, this is over two times the recent historical rate.

          In any event, this number does not seem representative of any long term trend. Surely it's not caused by a sudden proliferation of guns -- about 40 to 50 percent of households had firearms in recent years and surely in the last year that hasn't risen to be 80 to 100 percent.

          •  Correction... (0+ / 0-)

            The last two bullets of my previous post should read:

            • "Per Day" non suicide deaths via firearm: 33.9 (2011), 33.6 (2010)
            • "First Eight Days" of non suicide deaths via firearms: 271.5 (2011), 269.0 (2010)
        •  Ok but will any of these proposed measures stop (0+ / 0-)

          suicides.  How many "assault weapon" suicides are there?  Just curious, cause I don't know the answer.

          Will a national registry stop suicides?

          Will taxes or bullet counts stop suicides?  

          Generally if someone is suicidal, they will use rope, a belt, pills or throw themselves off a building when there is no gun present....hence suicide watch in jail.

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