Skip to main content

View Diary: NO! Pandering to the Rape Culture. (264 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  That just isn't true (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wednesday Bizzare, Sparhawk

    A lot of activists on the issue of rape argue that it is still rape if the person was "too intoxicated", even if they were conscious and did consent.  (The argument being that they were too intoxicated to give meaningful consent).

    Of course the commenter above agrees that an unconscious person cannot consent (unless they gave advance consent).  They are not disputing that.

    We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

    by RageKage on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 02:04:02 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I've seen people make that argument (5+ / 0-)

      but never anyone in any position of authority.  And when I have seen it, it is typically brought up in order to forcefully make the point that men should really think twice and three times before they have sex with someone who is really drunk -- because you know, if you do do something to a woman that she can later not remember consenting to and didn't want to happen when in her right mind, it's going to hurt her.  Whether the man "meant" rape or not, it's going to feel like something wrong was done to her.  It's could even fuck her up rather badly, and that's something that no decent person should want to invite.  Err on the side on caution, people.

      Why does every single conversation about rape devolve into a discussion of grayest-of-gray-area edge cases anyway?  Does anyone really get proscecuted for things like this?  Will anyone ever?  I tend to doubt it.  So why even bring it up?

      •  Because they don't want to deal with reality (7+ / 0-)

        The reality is rape culture enables not only rapists, but even the men who never have any intention of raping anyone.  They damned well know it, and they don't want things to change.

        It's same thing with the gun arguments, bring up the most ridiculous edge cases possible and get away from the vast majority of clear-cut crimes that aren't being prosecuted.  The behavior is identical.  Meanwhile we have laws going in to prevent a predicted 25 deaths nationally due to electric cars being too quiet at low speeds.  But 30,000 gun deaths a year, or I don't even know how many unprosecuted, let alone unreported rapes a year, hundreds of thousands, oh nooooo, we CAN'T make those laws tougher.

        •  Yep, it's a way for men to control women (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, Lonely Texan, demoKatz

          even when men aren't actively participating in it. By condoning it, they ensure that women live in fear of the dominant male culture.

          •  I know men who do not want any woman to have to (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LSophia, madhaus

            live in fear ever again and unfortunately, I also know rapists.  Between the two is a vast middle, where to differing degrees this certainly appears to be true.  While some Nice Guys tm  in that vast middle do receive some awfully nice benefits from women being afraid all the time.

        •  Wow (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hmi, LSophia
          The reality is rape culture enables not only rapists, but even the men who never have any intention of raping anyone.  They damned well know it, and they don't want things to change.
          I am, sadly, not very shocked that this abhorrent point of view is represented. I fervently hope that people with this opinion are the minority.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:53:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes they do get prosecuted for it. (0+ / 0-)

        And I say that from personal experience as a defence lawyer.

        We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

        by RageKage on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 04:44:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Really? (0+ / 0-)

          I'm fascinated (no joke).  Someone actually takes such a thing to court and expects to win?  Do they?

          •  Well, at least in my jurisdiction there is an (0+ / 0-)

            incredible amount of pressure on prosecutors not to drop cases.  Especially sexual assault.  My most recent case where this happened got thrown out of court at the preliminary inquiry.  But not before my client spent thousands of dollars and had this hanging over his head for a year.

            We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

            by RageKage on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 05:26:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  A lot of date rape drugs work... (6+ / 0-)

      by making the victim too woozy to understand what's going on or think straight, and/or giving them amnesia of the events that transpired.  If the standard is "the person must be fully passed out", then date-rape drugs are A-Okay.

      If we can manage standards for how drunk a person has to be to operate a motor vehicle, we can manage standards for how drunk a person has to be to be unable to consent.  And just like not everyone walks around with a breathalizer to tell if they're to drunk to drive because it's obvious if you're in the ballpark, if some girl is so drunk she can't even walk, she's too drunk to consent.  

      •  I really think (6+ / 0-)

        it's a lot more obvious when consent is there, and when not, than most of these arguments accept.  Wherever the legal line is drawn, as a matter of pure human decency it has to be understood that you don't fuck someone if you're not 100%, swear-on-your-mother's life sure that she (or he) wants to be fucked.  Verbal consent or encouragement, physical enthusiasm, and yes, something vaguely resembling a normal state of mind.  The damage done is real when these things are not in place, whether there's any legal remedy or not.  Don't be that guy.  Don't let your friends be that guy either.

        •  Yes, the available research teaches us that the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, Lonely Texan

          majority of rapes are committed by people who know exactly what they're doing. They may not consider their act rape, but they know they are taking advantage of someone's diminished physical and mental capabilities to take sex that they would not be able to take if the woman was sober. IMHO, the challenge is that rape culture supports these predators. We've changed culture so that it if it is not common to intervene when someone's too drunk to drive, it's at least not uncommon. We need to change culture so that people intervene when they see someone off with a person who's too drunk to positively consent.

          •  If the standard is: would they have consented if (0+ / 0-)

            sober (as you seem to be suggesting), I think you are asking for something that is simply out of touch with reality.

            Just because someone regrets a decision they made to have sex when they were intoxicated cannot mean they did not consent, or that it was an act of rape.  If this was the case, you could have a ridiculous situation were two people get loaded, have sex (and neither would have if sober), and both of them would be guilty of rape.

            We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

            by RageKage on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 12:44:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site