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  •  Well those prisons aren't going to fill themselves (58+ / 0-)

    are they?

    Some of us live in states with privatized prisons, after all,
    and that 90% fill rate ain't always easy to come by.

    What better way to guarantee warm bodies than
    maintaining the current laws?  

    For the love of God, man!  Think of the prison owners!

    •  change the sign to "drug treatment center" (22+ / 0-)

      unlock a few doors, and boys, we're (still) in business...

      Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).

      •  really? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        snoopydawg, grahamcstrouse

        bold and italic emphasis mine:

        Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).
        really? half the people "should be in mental health facilities" instead of good treatment facilities?   how do you come by your diagnosis that 50% of addicts and alcoholics should be in a mental health facility instead of treatment?

        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

        by kj in missouri on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 07:35:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Do you think people who (10+ / 0-)

          get into drugs do it because they're feeling absolutely great about themselves?

          We're all in agreement here that most pot smokers probably don't need help at all, so we're talking about hard drugs here, and alcohol. Many of those people still need drug treatment. But better mental health care can help prevent drug problems to begin with, and general mental health needs are totally underfunded in this country.

          And I never said anyone should be IN a mental health facility. What we need in this country is a lot more outpatient mental health facilities.  Inpatient mental health is underserved too, but that is a minority of cases, and is reserved for people who are suicidal, or have severe disorders. That's a different discussion.

          In any case, drugs are a symptom. We need to get serious about addressing the reasons why people feel the need to hop themselves up on meth.

          •  i'm going to be a stickler here, (0+ / 0-)

            i asked a question based on your comment.   i'm not going to get into the weeds of the causes of addiction or how/ if mental health care could help prevent addiction, at least, not until you answer my question above.   i really would like to establish a baseline to talk about your comment and without a direct answer to my question, there is no baseline.

            this is your statement:

            Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).
            do you stand behind all the words you typed?
            and if so, how do you come by your diagnosis?
            it's a serious statement and my question is simple and serious as well.

            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

            by kj in missouri on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 08:13:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm going to ask you a question (6+ / 0-)

              do you think parsing someone's casual comment as if it was a harvard thesis and getting nasty is a positive way to interact on this site?

              I don't find your response serious at all. I find you obstinate and intentionally thick. I assume you have personal issues of which I am not aware. And I bid you good night.

              •   when all else fails, go to namecalling: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kevskos

                "obstinate, intentionally thick, nasty, personal issues"

                pretty comprehensive list there!
                $10 to your favorite charity that Meteor Blades, in his own diary, won't say a word to you about your namecalling to me.  

                my question to you was quite serious.  it's a very serious subject.  so yeah, i am genuinely sorry that you don't see how very wrong and judgmental your statement about where you think addicts need to be in order to deal with their problems, and that you think half of them need to be in a mental health facility.  i had hoped to read a more progressive point of view.  something a little more in line with 2013 and less in line with 1920.

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 08:33:17 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You misinterpreted the original comment (9+ / 0-)

                  And then continued with your misconstrued understanding. You are the one being dickish here.

                  The entire comment was in the context of converting the jails to drug treatment centers. The phrase, "half of them should be mental health facilities" was in reference to this proposal. It was NOT a suggestion that people in need of drug counseling were really in need of mental health treatment. It was an acknowledgement that our mental health care system in the US is just as woeful as the rest of our health care system.

                  The original commenter erred in interpreting you as intentionally thick and obstinate as opposed to clueless. An easy mistake to make when under fire.

                  Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                  by kbman on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 09:37:13 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  here's the comment: (0+ / 0-)
                    Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).
                    it's clueless and dickish (and nasty and obstinate and intentionally thick and has personal issues)  to want a poster to clarify that statement?  

                    Since there is no answer, here's my rebuttal:
                    Mental health facilities are not the answer for half the people who need treatment.    

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:31:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  How can you be so sure of that?.... (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      WheninRome, kyril
                      Since there is no answer, here's my rebuttal:
                       Mental health facilities are not the answer for half the people who need treatment.    
                      ....I don't believe you know of what you speak.

                      It's quite possible that "mental health programs" could be THE answer.

                      Rule #7...If you supported the Iraq war, you don't get to complain about the national debt.

                      by suspiciousmind on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:45:05 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  think what you want of me. (0+ / 0-)

                        i do know a little of what i speak.  addiction is something we has a people had no real answers for until the early part of the last century.   a tragic condition for sufferers and their families for most of human history.  people were sent to mental health facilities and sanitoriums and given shock treatments and given up for dead, given up to hopelessness, given up to insanity.

                        treatment centers specialize in addiction.  mental health facilities do not.  treatment centers have provided many sufferers with a place to physically dextox and offered programs and community to give addicts tools that have proven to work for some people (and don't work for many others) that at least gives the addict a chance to rejoin the living.    

                        so, if it were me or my family member, i'd opt for treatment v mental health facility in a heartbeat.  much like i'd send someone with a skin disorder to a skin disorder clinic and not a cancer center.

                        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                        by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:27:15 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  Read the whole fucking comment. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      kyril

                      You really ARE being  intentionally obtuse.

                      Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                      by kbman on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:40:52 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Here it is, (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kyril
                        change the sign to "drug treatment center" (20+ / 0-)

                        unlock a few doors, and boys, we're (still) in business...

                        Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).

                        This was in response to:
                        Well those prisons aren't going to fill themselves (56+ / 0-)

                        are they?

                        Some of us live in states with privatized prisons, after all,
                        and that 90% fill rate ain't always easy to come by.

                        What better way to guarantee warm bodies than
                        maintaining the current laws?  

                        For the love of God, man!  Think of the prison owners!

                        I'd say the original commenter's intention was clear, and that is is you who are the cause of this entire misunderstanding. And you continue to double-down on teh dumb.

                        Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                        by kbman on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:47:56 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "teh dumb" (0+ / 0-)

                          nice.   really helps the discussion.   almost as much as resorting to name-calling when asked a question!

                          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                          by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:07:43 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I calls 'em like I see's 'em (0+ / 0-)

                            You also responded earlier to my use of the term "dickish". I chose this term specifically because it was the term Markos used in describing unacceptable behavior in others diaries. Given your $10 bet in which you insinuated that you were a purely innocent party and that the commenter was being dickish, I felt it appropriate to use that term to describe YOUR behavior.

                            And yes, when you argue into the far skinny margins with people defending your interpretation of things when you have been operating on a misunderstand of the facts - YES that is dumb, or "teh dumb" as the case may be.

                            Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                            by kbman on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:25:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  innocent? (0+ / 0-)

                            asking a question to clarify a baseline of communication before engaging in what is likely to be a disagreement?

                            innocent?   no.  probably, as you've said twice now, "teh dumb."   i've already admitted my "fail" here.  you want me to admit i'm "teh dumb" too?  fine!

                            whatever you want to think is absolutely fine with me.  my question was sincere, i know that.  whatever/however the internets wants to interpret me or my question is out of my control.   call it anything you want.  

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:22:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  A man and a woman were arguing in front of the (0+ / 0-)

                            gates of heaven ...

                            "NO Gladys! It was MY right-of-way!"

                            Being right is not all it's cracked up to be ... You appear to have an extreme attachment to it. As multiple people tried to enlighten you, you argued with them all into the skinny right margins, making yourself right and them and the original commenter wrong. You're still doing it.  Meh.

                            Free: The Authoritarians - all about those who follow strong leaders.

                            by kbman on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:17:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  "intentionally thick" is obnoxious... (9+ / 0-)

                  ...to be sure. But demanding that someone answer a question AFTER she has already answered your first question in which you misquoted what she said is also obnoxious. I abhor insults and never tip them because it encourages more of the same even if the rest of a comment is dead on. So I won't tip decembersue, but I will note that I agree 100% with this:

                  And I never said anyone should be IN a mental health facility. What we need in this country is a lot more outpatient mental health facilities. Inpatient mental health is underserved too, but that is a minority of cases, and is reserved for people who are suicidal, or have severe disorders. That's a different discussion.

                  Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                  by Meteor Blades on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 12:01:16 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  there is no misquote (0+ / 0-)

                    the quote was copied and pasted directly from her comment.  
                    and she didn't answer my question.

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:15:42 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sigh... (5+ / 0-)

                      What decembersue said:

                      (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).
                      What you quoted her as saying:
                      really? half the people "should be in mental health facilities" instead of good treatment facilities?
                      As she reiterates, the the drug treatment facilities should be mental health facilities and she does NOT say people should be IN them. Great big difference.

                      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                      by Meteor Blades on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 06:28:34 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  post in reply was eaten. (0+ / 0-)

                        perhaps that's for the best.  

                        half of treatment centers should not be mental health facilities.

                        and mental health facilities are not where half the people who need treatment should be.

                        and insults and name-calling should not be the norm here.

                        but what will be will be.

                        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                        by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:02:35 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, I agree with your fourth sentence... (0+ / 0-)

                          ...entirely, as I made clear.

                          As for the rest, that's a totally reasonable opinion in contrast to decembersue's. But she DID make her position clear with her first answer to your question.

                          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                          by Meteor Blades on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:49:12 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  no, she did not. (0+ / 0-)

                            it's apples and apples whether it is half the people with (addiction) problems should be 'in' mental health facilities instead of good treatment centers or half the good treatment centers should be mental health facilities... the outcome remains the same.

                            people with addiction problems are half to be treated in treatment facilities and half to be treated in mental health facilities.

                            and that idea is old and wrong as is calling me names and "assuming i have personal issues."  

                            but hey, somebody's favorite charity didn't get $10 today as you also called my behavior "obnoxious."  

                            my bad for thinking progressives in a diary about this country's idiotic drug laws wanted to take a reality-based view of what to do when someone actually does have a problem with addiction.

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:14:09 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I AGREED with you that the name-calling... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kyril

                            ...was wrong.

                            But we'll just have to disagree that being IN a mental health facility with the very strong implication of being committed there is not different, very different to anybody who has been in that situation, than being treated AT a mental health facility where one is free to walk away and that treatment may be simple therapy.

                            Your version of a "reality-based view" of how to treat people with addiction (which is often a symptom of other problems) is not the only "reality-based view."

                            Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

                            by Meteor Blades on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:45:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  since i have no hard and fast (0+ / 0-)

                            view of how to treat people with addiction, other than stating here that treatment centers have proven to be a better option, with a better (if still dismal) success rate, than mental health facilities, your comment above doesn't apply to me.

                            there is no one-sized-fits-all answer to addiction.  i've known far too many alcoholics and addicts in my life to ever think there was.   but i am certainly going to challenge a statement that assumes half of treatment centers (and therefore half the people with addiction) "should" be mental health facilities.

                            and interestingly enough, sometimes even drugs themselves are the answer to addiction.   paradox?   whatever works.

                            i hope i've been very, very clear.

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:05:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and... (0+ / 0-)

                            you agreed with me re: namecalling at the same calling my behavior obnoxious.  false equivalency, and all that.

                            but in the spirit of understanding that calling an opinion on treatment centers v mental health facilities has nothing to do with a poster's "personal issues," since i've never been to either, i'll send $10 to a place of my choice.

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:11:20 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  out-patient treatment (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kyril

                            is common, by the way.
                            not all treatment centers are in-patient, 28 days, etc.
                            some treatment centers only provide in-patient while dealing with initial detoxing.

                            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                            by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:15:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  oh an insults and pie fights (0+ / 0-)

                    move the thread ever rightward and they get narrow and skinny.......easy to scroll that way though, which I usually do.

                  •  You also tipped this, MB (0+ / 0-)
                    Don't get me wrong, we do need good drug treatment facilities in this country, but they should be focused on people who actually have problems (and half of them should be mental health facilities anyway).
                    and if this is something you agree with 100%, i'm going to tell you that you are not only wrong about that, you are way behind the curve in how to deal with addiction.   half of treatment centers should not be mental health facilities.   they are not two sides of the same coin.

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:16:52 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  i am going to apologize for (0+ / 0-)

                attempting to engage you in conversation, decembersue.   not much of an apology, but i am sorry i tried and failed so miserably to attempt to establish a baseline for communication on treatment centers, mental health facilities and addiction.   i did include the word "in" in one instance.  that was my mistake.  apparently that was all it took for this conversation to go off the rails and devolve into name-calling and insults.

                this is a serious subject.  that i failed to do justice to the people who suffer and need help for addiction by offering clearer points of view is something else i am sorry for.  perhaps it best i do not engage in this subject again.  it is something i have avoided doing in the past and not engaging was the better course of action.

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 11:11:57 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  "my fail" (0+ / 0-)

                in case anything above wasn't clear.

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 11:13:51 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Many people do them because they're fun. (12+ / 0-)

            It's not always some underlying mental health issue or self-destructive streak. Getting high is fun. Drugs make you feel good. That doesn't necessarily mean you don't feel good sober. Sometimes it's just fun to leave planet Earth for a while.

            •  I see where decembersue is coming from. (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              bewild, rlochow, SixSixSix, kyril, Wood Dragon

              Like anything else done for pleasure, drugs can be done to excess and often that excess is self-medicating for things that would be more effectively treated in a clinical settings.

              However, like alcohol, treatment should be largely a personal choice.

              The whole decade needs an asterisk.

              by James Kresnik on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 03:41:55 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  exactly. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SixSixSix

              not every one who drinks alcohol or takes drugs becomes addicted, either.   it's not always a matter of self-destructiveness or mental issues, just altering reality for awhile.   people do it, animals do it.  it's pretty natural and organic thing.

              but when addiction occurs, it's generally a good idea to deal with the physical issues (detox) and treatment for the physical addiction and provide tools for the social and mental and spiritual issues.   trying to treat addiction through a mental health facility was something this country did decades ago, when addiction was little understood and there was no such thing as "treatment" for it.

              "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

              by kj in missouri on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:12:17 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Aside from the drug issue, I agree 100% (0+ / 0-)

            That mental health services are being improperly prioritized in this country. The recession and push for austerity has made this even worse.

            I wish we could do something to make it easier to involuntarily commit mentally ill people who pose a threat to themselves and others. It's very important to respect peoples' rights and autonomy, but it's too hard to get dangerous mentally ill people into forced treatment. I have a stepbrother who is very mentally ill, and has a history of violent behavior and a suicide attempt. The last 5 years have been a really shitty cycle. He gets arrested, he's incompetent to stand trial and is hospitalized. They get him into a mental hospital, get him on psychiatric drugs so that he becomes competent to stand trial. His case is adjudicated, he gets out of jail/hospital, stops taking his medicine (one of the saddest aspects of mental illness is that sick people often think they're fine), and then does something to get himself arrested again. He's dangerous, but this cycle is really shitty. He needs to be hospitalized indefinitely or forced to take medication (I understand there are psychiatric drugs that are time-released and can be given once a month or so).

            The current situation is not good for society, and it's not good for my brother.

      •  Coercive drug treatment does not work. (4+ / 0-)
    •  If a Kennedy is involved with creating (4+ / 0-)

      slave labor in this country, I am effing done.

      if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:01:53 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  OK, I'm not done. (5+ / 0-)

      But I will state for the record that if he or any of his family are into the private corporatized prison side of this, they should be damned well ashamed.  And it will damn well suck.

      if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Jan 08, 2013 at 10:02:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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