Skip to main content

View Diary: You NEED to watch this clip of Jon Stewart talk about gun control (406 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  When more than 1/2 of those deaths are (4+ / 0-)

    suicides, I question his numbers for one.

    I like Stewart. Everyone's wrong about something. This is one of the things he's wrong on.

    Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

    by KVoimakas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:45:13 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  "Everyone's wrong about something." (13+ / 0-)

      Look at the man in the mirror. Please. You are wrong, and you are tearing this place apart.

      Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

      by earicicle on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 07:54:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Looks like I was wrong about this being a (5+ / 0-)

        reality based community.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:00:13 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sure. Go with that. (11+ / 0-)

          Please, depart and go find one. I hear the NRA is very reality-based, at least as far as your reality is concerned.

          Or you could walk back your asinine remarks and accept that intelligent people disagree on these contentious issues and show a bit more respect for the progressive community that has given you a forum to defend RKBA.

          But please, one or the other.

          We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

          by raptavio on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:37:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was thinking of those people who (4+ / 0-)

            propose a ban that will not pass (here on DK). Reality based?

            I was thinking of those people who think a ban would solve the problem. Reality based?

            I was thinking of those people who think registration would fix the issue so we should register all firearms. Reality based?

            I was thinking of the diary that was a blatant lie (I think from last night?) about a bear and firearms on a military base. Yet, it made the reclist even after it was pointed out that it was fictionally based on data that the author provided. Reality based?

            I was thinking of the IT'S THE GUNS mantra that keeps popping up yet in the '50s you could get a 'high capacity assault weapon' with no background checks. Hell you could have one delivered to your HOUSE with no background check. Why didn't we have school shootings back then? (Not that I'm saying I want to return to the 50s; I don't). Reality based?

            I was thinking of the RKBA = NRA based bullshit that I keep seeing here. Yet, when we repeatedly say we are not, it keeps being brought up. Reality based?

            Is reality subjective?

            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

            by KVoimakas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:42:20 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We did have school shootings (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lyvwyr101, m00finsan, drmah

              in the 1950s. There was one in my father's school, in fact, in the '50s. Reality based?

              I could nitpick the rest of your stuff, but regardless.

              You want to sneer at the entire DKos community based on your perceived failings of a few, that's your business. But I recommend you choose your words a bit more carefully, particularly if you think yourself the one in the room who is, in actuality, "reality-based."

              We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

              by raptavio on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:56:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, I find huge chunks of DK are reality based. (3+ / 0-)

                The gun control issue? Not so much.

                So we had school shootings back then? Same amount? More? Less?

                Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                by KVoimakas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:02:34 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  If you're interested (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  salamanderempress

                  in finding out, I invite you to do the lifting and find out. I'm not interested enough to do so. In general, however, people heavily romanticize the past and think it was a lot better than it actually was, and I caution you against falling into that trap.

                  My only message to you is "Don't shit where you eat."

                  We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. -- Jonathan Swift

                  by raptavio on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:09:29 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I did go looking (6+ / 0-)

                    There are incidents of school related shootings. Suicides and accidental shootings and grievance shootings involving one on one crime.

                    I found this interesting, September 24, 1959: “Twenty-seven men and boys and an arsenal were seized in the Bronx last night as the police headed off a gang war resulting from the fatal shooting of a teen-ager Monday at Morris High School.” Gangs in '59. Who knew?

                    But, I didn't find incidents of mass shooting like we are addressing. It is a relatively new phenomena. The Whitman sniper shooting from the tower happened in Texas in '66 and IMO ushered in a whole new ballgame.

                    "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

                    by high uintas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:55:59 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  When you delineate the differences (3+ / 0-)

              in your advocacy people will give your claim credibility. As things stand, your essential and ultimate aims align perfectly. It is known in the vernacular as "not a dime's worth of difference."

              I can think of 10 different times I have invited RKBA members to spell out the differences between their aims and those of NRA. At no time has there been a cogent reply. But there has been plenty of mockery, jeering, insult and warnings from on high not to "engage."

          •  It's OK to be reality based for NRAvangelists as (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a2nite

            long as their true faith is never questioned, better yet - never brought up.

            Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

            by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 11:34:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I've always seen it as a EMOTION based community (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fuzzyguy

          personally....

          "See? I'm not a racist! I have a black friend!"

          by TheHalfrican on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:02:14 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  There are a lot of people tearing this place apart (4+ / 0-)

        compared to the sux/rox battles this is a small diversion, for gawd's sake let's take a breath here.

        Some here are all about "gun control" and even banning guns. I've read diaries about getting rid of the 2nd amendment and making guns illegal. Like we need another underground black market to feed teh prison industrial complex.

        That attitude makes those of us who believe that the Bill of Rights has already been under too much assault more than just a little angry. We gleefully gave up the 4th amendment so we'd be safe from nasty drugs and terrorists. "Sure, check my pee so I can get a job and here's a sample of my hair! Why don't you bust down my door without a warrant and bug my phone."

        Now it's the 2nd. Let's dismantle it because we don't feel safe. Never mind the country is already full of guns and there is no feasible way to confiscate all of them or that this is a right that is clearly guaranteed by the Constitution. Let's do the liberal thing and fuck the Constitution, right? We never pay a price when we do that....

        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

        by high uintas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:42:21 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Without those guns... (16+ / 0-)

      the chances of a suicidal person successfully committing suicide drop rather dramatically.  Overdosing on pills actually doesn't have as high a success rate as you'd think.

      •  People who try to overdose on pills are almost (6+ / 0-)

        always engaged in Parasuicide.  Same with cutters.

        Absent a gun, they go for a rope.  That's what happened in Australia.  The success rate for hanging is very close to the success rate for those using firearms.

        There was a huge spike in suicide right after the restrictions of 1996. Now, to be clear, I sure am not saying that spike was caused by stricter gun laws.

        It took nearly a decade for overall suicide in Australia to fall back to what it was in the early 1990's.

        In the US, people trying to commit suicide use guns.  In rural India, they use pesticide and have the same success rate.  In Australia, they hang themselves with very nearly the same success rate.

        It's critical to understand what is a cry for much needed intervention, and what's actually a suicide attempt.

        If we want to reduce suicides, we have to invest far more heavily in mental health spending and destroy the stigma against seeking treatment for mental illness.  

        Several of the countries with the worlds highest suicide rates have, for all practical purposes, no civilian access to firearms.

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:32:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  More complicated than that. (9+ / 0-)

          Regarding suicides in Australia, take note of this:

          In 1997, there was a peak in the number of suicides in Australia, when 2720 deaths were classified as suicide, giving an overall non-age-adjusted rate of 14.7 per 100 000. Over the next 10 years, the total number of suicides fell so that in 2007, 1880 deaths were classified as suicide, an overall non-age-adjusted rate of 8.9 per 100 000. Although the number of deaths from suicide fell, this does not appear to be the result of a decline in suicidal ideation or rates of attempted suicide. The 1997 National Survey of Mental Health and Wellbeing (NSMHW) found a 12-month prevalence of suicidal ideation of 2.9%, and that 0.3% of the population had attempted suicide. In the 2007 survey, those figures were 2.3% and 0.4%, respectively.
          So people were still attempting suicide at the same rate, but fewer of them were dying from it.  That's the point.

          And after testing their hypothesis, this was what they concluded.

          Conclusions: The decline in rates of suicide in most parts of Australia coincides with a reduction in the availability of lethal methods. Consideration should be given to further measures to limit the availability of lethal methods of suicide.
          Those who would've committed suicide by gun may have indeed turned to hanging; but this wasn't nearly as successful (90% vs. 83%).  Despite the 1997-1998 spike, fewer guns in Australia was indeed correlated with fewer suicides.
          •  My entire paternal line committed suicide (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            KVoimakas, rockhound, fuzzyguy

            One of them did it with a gun, Grandpa used his shotgun. The rest, grandma, dad, his sister and my brother all did it with alcohol. I would have too if I hadn't quit drinking.

            "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

            by high uintas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:58:59 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Again - you're conflating parasuicide and suicide. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LaEscapee, poligirl

            People don't make shallow cuts to their wrist or eat a bottle of tylenol because they don't know how to kill themselves.

            They do it as a desperate (and sincere) cry for help.

            That's the point.

            It took a decade - and a great deal of public spending on suicide prevention - for suicide rates in Australia to drop back to pre-restriction levels.  

            In 1988, the national male suicide rate per 100 000 males per annum was 21.0. The most common methods were shooting (5.93), hanging (5.14), gassing (4.43) and poisoning (2.56). Less common methods were jumping from a height (0.84), drowning (0.43) and suicide by sharp implement (0.43). Other methods, including electrocution, immolation and jumping in front of moving vehicles, accounted for a total of less than 1.17 per 100 000 per annum.

            In the following 10 years, there was a trend towards an increase in suicide by males, to a peak in 1998 when the national suicide rate was 28.3 per 100 000. This peak was associated with a near doubling of the rate of hanging, and occurred despite a 60% fall in firearm suicides between 1988 and 1998

            .  

            All emphasis mine.

            It's important to look at all the data.  In 1995 Australia became one of the first countries in the world to commit to a national suicide prevention plan, and substantially increased mental health funding toward this end.

            I pick out male suicides because Female suicides in Australia never involved much use of firearms to begin with.  If a decrease in firearm suicide was the key to saving lives, we'd see that much more dramatically with men.

            Even prior to the heavy restrictions imposed in 1996, suicide by firearm was dramatically falling off.  Australian society was changing and becoming more urban, and fewer people had guns in the home.  Additionally, regional laws were tightening up considerably in some areas, further decreasing gun ownership.

            Firearms availability didn't create that peak.  Absence of firearms didn't get rid of it - we'd have seen a huge drop in the total suicide rate right away if it had.

            A decade of sound mental health care and proactive intervention brought it back down.

            We don't need to wait a couple decades and play games while people in the US slowly realize that getting rid of guns won't stop suicides.  We need to make sure mental health care and support are available to everyone who needs them, not rely on "solutions" that don't actually address the problem.

            Suicide is mostly cultural.  There's a reason nations with no guns sometimes still have very high suicide rates, it's primarily that they have a high degree of stigma attached to seeking mental health care.

            That's the same reason American men are killing themselves more than 4.5 times more often than American women.

            Because admitting their need for help is more abhorrent to them firing a bullet into their heads or finding a five dollar rope and a tree.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:23:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  And let me make this as clear as I can - I'm for (4+ / 0-)

            restrictions on gun ownership that cause some seriously bad blood between myself and a lot of the RBKA group here.

            I don't talk gun politics at the range, or with fellow hunters, for the most part.

            I really don't have a problem with laws requiring everyone to keep their handguns at the range.  

            If I had my druthers, I'd import the entire package of Canadian guns laws with only a few tweaks.  

            But if we just try to cherry pick facts in an effort to support our prejudices, we're no different than the NRA.  

            We'll still be creating a false sense that we're addressing a problem we're doing nothing to alleviate.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:26:40 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Guns make it easier to expand beyond suicide (7+ / 0-)

          I've not heard of any mass suicide/homicide hangings in Australia or mass poisonings in India although I'm open to the possibility that they have happened.

          Eagles may soar, but at least weasels don't get sucked into jet engines

          by SnyperKitty on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:58:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with you entirely. Men in South Korea (6+ / 0-)

            lose their shit and kill their families along with themselves with kind of a shocking frequency, but they don't go to the mall and injure 30 and kill 12 afterward.

            Restricting access to firearms (and more particularly to firearms capable of delivering a lot of rounds in a hurry) can definitely save lives in a berserker situation.

            "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

            by JesseCW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:29:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  So subtract that half (5+ / 0-)

      which you could if they had not had easy access to a gun is what you are saying?

      There are no sacred cows.

      by LaEscapee on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:20:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The 24-hour waiting period (13+ / 0-)

      after the purchase of a firearm might have saved my friend Tyler's life. 24 hours on that day he pawned his TV for a .22, drove out to the lake and shot himself in the head, it might have saved him. There might have been a chance in there, some way to intervene, something. But gun-rights advocates are against waiting periods.

      Don't be so dismissive of suicides, please. When someone poisons themselves, or cuts their wrists, there is a chance of survival. A bullet to the head is terribly final.  

      "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

      by Reepicheep on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 08:59:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  asdf... (11+ / 0-)

        I am so sorry for your loss, Reepicheep. I am so sorry about Tyler. I know how painful it is to lose someone to suicide. I won't tell my personal stories here about losing loved ones to suicide and to gun violence, because I won't let the cold-hearted gun fetishists here defile those graves with their specious sophistry.

        The suicides are just as important, and anyone who is serious in this conversation is NOT dismissing them.

        {{{{{Reepicheep}}}}}
        {{{{{Tyler}}}}}

        Ho'oponopono. To make things right; restore harmony; heal.

        by earicicle on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 09:55:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm sorry for your loss (5+ / 0-)

        If you read my comment upthread you'll see I have my own history with suicide. To add, a young friend did it with old style antidepressants. Once she took the pills there was no chance to save her.

        "The scientific nature of the ordinary man is to go on out and do the best you can." John Prine

        by high uintas on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 10:03:19 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Waiting periods a great idea precisely (4+ / 0-)

        so that people don't so something rash, but it's a lot easier to argue that they tend to prevent homicide.

        The vast majority of people who slit their wrists are engaged in parasuicide.  They choose a method that know isn't likely to kill them.

        They do it out of desperation and pain and as a cry for help that should be listened to.  In fact, there is a substantial risk that in the future they will try to kill themselves.

        People leap to the conclusion that if people who want to kill themselves don't have access to guns, they'll use a method that very rarely succeeds like cutting or overdose.

        They won't.  They'll opt for a method they expect will work, like parking on the tracks or hanging.

        People who use a gun intend to die.  They're mostly men, and they're horrified at the shame they will face if they fail.

        "Furthermore, if you think this would be the very very last cut ever if we let it happen, you are a very confused little rabbit." cai

        by JesseCW on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 11:09:58 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Cause suicides don't count, don't you know that (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      radical simplicity

      people that commit suicide with a firearm are miraculously resurrected by the 27-Word Gospel? Therefore suicides don't count as deaths (and neither do other innocent victims, even children).  

      Man that 2A kool-aid sure is strong!

      Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

      by DefendOurConstitution on Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 11:33:34 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (140)
  • Community (59)
  • Elections (39)
  • Civil Rights (36)
  • 2016 (32)
  • Culture (32)
  • Law (27)
  • Environment (26)
  • Baltimore (26)
  • Texas (26)
  • Economy (26)
  • Labor (23)
  • Bernie Sanders (23)
  • Hillary Clinton (22)
  • Health Care (18)
  • Republicans (18)
  • Rescued (18)
  • Barack Obama (17)
  • International (17)
  • Freddie Gray (16)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site