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View Diary: So Guns Don't Kill People, eh? (328 comments)

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  •  Guns and Suicide (36+ / 0-)

    First - I think your comment reflects a certain insensitivity to the second comment (after the tip jar) in this diary.

    However, that aside, it reflects a reflexive 'guns aren't the problem ... X is the problem'

    Suicide attempts are typically impulse actions - if a gun is available in a home, that attempt will strongly correlate to the outcome.  "The gun in the home" allows an easy transition from that suicidal impulse to carrying out the action without ANY opportunity to consequently reflect on the outcome.

    Additionally, how many times have any of us read - "After killing [friends, family, coworkers] the shooter turned the gun on themselves - in what turns out to be aa protracted suicide.

    Simply responding with "Oh - those were suicides" so they don't count - is at best thoughtless, but potentially it looks like willful blind ignorance.

    "I want to keep them alive long enough that I can win them to Christ," - Rick Warren, Professional Greed Driven Scumbag

    by josephk on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 08:20:08 AM PST

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    •  The concept of suicide (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cedwyn, meagert

      I personally hate the concept of suicide although I do support it as an option for terminally ill people under the right circumstances.  That being said, suicides do matter and we should try to minimize them.  However, that is a separate topic from guns being used to hurt others which should be the larger focus of gun regulations.  All of the RKBA folks here would like to see less suicides, so it isn't that anyone is being callous.

      •  ...what? (10+ / 0-)
        That being said, suicides do matter and we should try to minimize them.  However, that is a separate topic from guns being used to hurt others which should be the larger focus of gun regulations.
        So what you're saying is, the extremely large number of people in the US who kill themselves with guns, many of whom would not have killed themselves if they had not had a gun (this is substantiated over and over again, in study after study), should not be a focus of gun regulations?
        •  That would require recognizing the greater (9+ / 0-)

          lethality of guns, something that gun extremists are loathe to do except in cases where their own defense is involved.  It would make it harder to parrot NRA "Guns don't kill people" bumper stickers.

          To believe that markets determine value is to believe that milk comes from plastic bottles. Bromley (1985)

          by sneakers563 on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:27:30 AM PST

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        •  tease it out to its conclusion (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          meagert, FrankRose, theboz, ban nock
          So what you're saying is, the extremely large number of people in the US who kill themselves with guns, many of whom would not have killed themselves if they had not had a gun (this is substantiated over and over again, in study after study), should not be a focus of gun regulations?
          the problem is suicide and what passes for health care in this country.  but let's ignore that for now.

          the majority of u.s. gun deaths are suicides

          the majority of u.s. gun deaths are via handgun, not anything an AWB would touch

          so, given the second amendment, what gun regulation is going to affect suicide rates?

          Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say - Grateful Dead

          by Cedwyn on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:31:37 AM PST

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          •  A regulation requiring INSURANCE for all (5+ / 0-)

            gun owners and that insurance would be contingent upon SAFE STORAGE of their firearms.

            That might have prevented the Newtown massacre.

            Obviously the 2nd amendment is wrong as it has allowed the proliferation of guns in the USA. It's this simple: Scalia has been wrong more than once.

            ❧To thine ownself be true

            by Agathena on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:58:00 AM PST

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          •  Again suicide by hand gun is a public health (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Debby, theboz, mamamedusa, splashy

            issue that no one is doing because of the ban on funding. We are wearing sunglasses and walking at night in the fog on this issue. Besides how many assualt rifles are used in suicide? I think you will find that the majority of suiciides take place with hand guns. Except of course for the mass murders.

            Scalia ruled that Holder and McDonald protect the right to own a hand gun under the second amendment. However he also said that other types of wepaons could be regulated or banned. This would include the assualt type weapon. Banning assualt weapons would deal with the mass murder issue but not the majority of gun related murders or suicides. And since the NRA has managed for 16 years to make sure no research on guns as a public health issue is done we are left with a few questions?

            1. What is the real likelyhood that a gun in a house makes successful suicide more of a possibility?

            2. When we talk about gun control what do we mean? Banning assualt weapons will not eliminate even a plurality of gun crime.

            3. If guns are determined to be a health hazard what does that do to the 2nd amendments legal status in the future. After all many Supreme Court decisions upheld child labor and struck laws that banned child labor.

            4. If guns are determined to be a health hazard should we deal with it the way we dealt with other health hazards? Like second hand smoke or drunk driving or other activities that we once found acceptable but no longer do.

            •  If nothing else (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Cedwyn

              Studies could convince more that having guns around those that are suicidal is a bad idea.

              As it is now, many don't realize how much of a problem it is.

              Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

              by splashy on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:41:00 AM PST

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        •  The other replies to you express my opinion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          meagert

          ...much better than I did.  Basically, the causes of suicide must be addressed long before guns come into the picture.  Most suicides as well as gun-involved crimes are done with pistols and not rifles of any kind.  Thus an "assault-weapons ban" does basically nothing to lower suicide or crime rates.  I doubt it would have much impact on the rates of accidental shootings either.  Mass shootings are too random to really prevent well without addressing the root causes too.

          What I would like to see is a gun user licensing scheme with mandatory safety training and background checks for gun users.  I would like to see good regulations concerning gun storage (e.g. no sleeping with a loaded pistol under your pillow.  I would like to see root causes of violence addressed from poverty to mental health care and all sorts of other things.

    •  Well said joaephk. That suicide reference (0+ / 0-)

      has been repeated a hundred times on this site. As if those deaths may not have been prevented by safer gun laws. Gun laws compelling "safe storage" for example.

      ❧To thine ownself be true

      by Agathena on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:53:11 AM PST

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    •  I work,,, so I don't spend all day on DK (0+ / 0-)

      and I just got  home and found your comment which is a response to mine supposedly. Frankly I don't see how asking to address suicide when those are the stats the diarist used is somehow insensitive. Maybe it's just something you and your 33 recommenders didn't want to see?

      Sometimes I'm at a loss as to what goes through the heads of many here.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:06:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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