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View Diary: Anti-gay Pastor Louie Giglio drops out of inauguration (302 comments)

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  •  Churches that the U.S. would not tolerate (12+ / 0-)

    in many, many cases are literally preying on Ugandans, who are some of the poorest people in the world, giving them help with finances, schools, and serving as de facto NGO's in return for their church attendance. They are, in other words, exploiting Ugandans.

    Few issues make me as angry as thinking about these disgusting, so-called missionaries exchanging services with desperate people for the purpose of spreading violent, anti-gay attitudes.

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    by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:28:09 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah, but what is the connection? (0+ / 0-)

      The United States leads the world in murders, but that doesn't make you a killer.

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:35:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have no idea what your reply means (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kefauver, suesue

        What is the connection between what? And how does it relate to the U.S. murder rate?

        Did you reply to the wrong comment? I'm guessing that you did.

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        by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:38:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Let me make it more clear - (0+ / 0-)

          Other people doing bad things doesn't mean you are doing bad things.

          Without more, the Uganda mention isn't even guilt by association -- it's guilt by geography.

          LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

          by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:39:54 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  What on earth are you talking about (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, No10oX

            Be specific then. What are you referring to about a "Uganda mention" and guilt by mention.

            I can't really follow what you're saying or why, so you need to spell whatever you mean out because I don't imagine I'm the only one without a clue what your comment here actually means.

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            by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:42:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Try reading the thread. (0+ / 0-)

              It has mentioned "kill the gay laws",
              It has mentioned Scott Lively.
              It has mentioned assorted evangelical events.

              What it hasn't done -- and what I have asked about -- is connected Griglio to them.

              If he's involved with that stuff, it's a bad thing.
              If not -- it's something different, but...

              Tarring somebody for what he or she has not done is a hateful and destructive act, usually carried on for reasons that have nothing to do with truth.

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:51:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Do you have Google "installed" on your computer? (10+ / 0-)

                Sorry to take a sharp tone, but he just performed in Uganda this summer for an anti-gay, evangelical group in the country of Uganda itself. Here's video footage of that for you:

                http://newlynewtons.com/...

                Here's where he tweets about going to Uganda to perform for that event:

                https://twitter.com/...

                That event, like all evangelical events in Uganda, are partially intended to build support for the Kill the Gays bill:

                http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

                Here's where he brags about his familial involvement with the notoriously anti-gay Chik-Fil-A:

                http://www.towleroad.com/...

                I hope that helps. This is a known issue. It's not particularly controversial in terms of its factuality. It may have been a few years ago, but at present, what evangelical churches are doing in Uganda (and throughout Africa, particularly Central Africa) is very agenda-driven and capitalizes off of poverty toward legislation that simply would not pass here in the U.S.

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                by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:10:42 AM PST

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                •  Thanks for the links. (0+ / 0-)

                  Some pretty awful stuff there:

                  Louie Giglio spoke tonight about Psalms 148 and how the heavens will praise God.  And all the creatures of the sea will Praise Him.  And so will we.  But even if we don’t…even when we choose not too…the heavens are still praising God.  He demonstrated by showing us what the stars (pulsars) actually sound like…and then other stars…and then creatures of the sea (whales)…and he mixed it all together into a song and we all began to recognize the song and we began to sing.  And we were reminded that this music is happening all the time.  That the heavens are praising Him always.  And that we’re invited into something so much bigger than ourselves…always.

                  LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                  by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:19:27 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Total red herring (5+ / 0-)

                    and I think you damned well know that the content of his sermon is NOT what I am questioning so much as the FINANCIAL and GOVERNMENTAL support that this provides to Ugandan evangelicals.

                    And I strongly feel that you are not bothering to make your points here in good faith at this point since you are literally decontextualizing things, throwing red herrings around, trying to dehistoricize and minimize the impact of all of this. I don't know why, and I don't care to.

                    For what it's worth, my grandfather was an evangelical pastor himself. I have nothing but respect for his memory, and he was a tolerant and humble man from another time. But this guy, Giglio, is nothing like my grandfather, and that is clear as day; one can try to apologize all one wants for his recent support of the Ugandan evangelical movement, but what that means, definitionally speaking, is support for the Kill the Gays Bill. I'm sorry, I'm genuinely sorry, that you don't understand this because your apathy toward it simply gives it a pass which is the sort of American attitude which has basically enabled it in the first place. And while you may be thinking, "What right does some random person online have to say that?" or perhaps you don't even care enough to bother thinking that, I might as well be standing eye-to-eye looking at you saying it because if you were here now, I'd say the same thing and I think you'd better understand how deeply important this actually is.

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                    by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:42:34 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  That's good to know. (0+ / 0-)

                      If you are speaking honestly, you will admit that some folks around here are of the mind evangelical=evangelical=hate.

                      I've belonged to evangelical churches in the past and have encountered everything from humble servants to self-promoters to cultlike crazies and bible-enabled dictators.

                      My problem with your references to the Passion series is not that you're wrong -- I honestly don't know -- but that the series is multi-national and Uganda is just one of the stops.

                      It might be nothing more than a matter of "Who's the bad guy here?".

                      The Ugandan government is clearly a bad guy here.
                      It seems equally clear that some US evangelicals are bad guys in this.

                      The question:
                      Is Giglio actually helping the government and it's anti-gay policies?

                      This may be one of those cases where he -- and the conference promoters -- should be held to a higher standard than usual, to openly distance themselves (and the money raised) from the bad actors.

                      I don't remember seeing anything of that sort on the site.  From that, we could imply, at the very least, a degree of cowardice on the part of the promoters.

                      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

                      by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:56:11 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes, he is helping them outright (0+ / 0-)

                        because, when he chose to go to Uganda, that money is filtered into their economy. There's a huge movement to divest and boycott Uganda from many industries, mainly in the tourist trade but mentioned here and there in others to, to avoid the Ugandan Government under Musaveni winding up with proceeds. Also, the monies are filtered through to evangelical churches when he chose to stop in Uganda knowing full well that these churches would 1. be the main source of his attendance in Uganda and 2. also support the Kill the Gays Bill.

                        Secondly, he helped them through his moral/ethical support by choosing to not go to Uganda and say to the churches there, "What you guys are doing is wrong in the eyes of the Lord," which for a Christian is obvious since no one should be murdered under the basic ten commandments and under Jesus' own charitable, tolerant nature. Instead, he didn't do that. He went there, preached, and was silent on an issue -- as you say in your second-to-last paragraph, that he should have distanced himself from bad actors. Bingo! Precisely.

                        Now I'm glad we are talking because I want you to understand that I know how difficult it is for those who don't want to see evangelical Christians tarred with one big brush on this site, which is very common, and which I have personally opposed (I do openly oppose some very specific sub-sects, but I have no grief with the church or evangelicals in general and know many to be good people). I hope you see that this was cowardice, as you well characterized it, on Giglio's behalf: the issue of "killing" gay Ugandans, which is a half million people, is the foremost issue right now in the U.S. backed churches there, and he, as another U.S. church coming in there, he should have been brave enough to really preach against that sort of hatred. What would Jesus do? Jesus would have been straight-forward, I think, and not let people go around killing others based on some justification or another; no one deserves to be murdered for something like this, particularly not in a genocidal fashion which is what the bill is proposing: a sort of genocidal rounding up of gay people in Uganda to kill them all in Jesus' name with a stamp on the back from a stone-cold dictator and despot.

                        That should be a serious concern for any true Christian, whatever their personal views of homosexuality are. None ought to support it either outright or through the cowardice of not speaking up at opportune moments, or by silently  funding it either by bringing in big money to sponsor it. All are painful to hear about.

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                        by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:19:57 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  MO, Don't Waste Your Time. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              mahakali overdrive

              Dino is a libertarian contortionist who has overstayed his welcome by about 4 years or so.

              Have you written your Chained CPI/Social Security Betrayal/Obama is a Caver diary today? 100's already have. What are you waiting for?!

              by kefauver on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:43:38 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I see from your previous comments (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            vcmvo2, No10oX, KathleenM1

            that you have absolutely no clue about what evangelicals, including this fucking asshole, have been doing in Uganda, how they have been pressing to have some Ugandan citizens murdered, and how they've been using their pulpits to codify this into law.

            If you don't believe that, my apologies to you, but this is a fact, a very well-documented fact, to the point that to challenge it is outright C/T.

            If you believe in conspiracy theory crap like that American Evangelical Churches are not using Uganda as a home base to spread anti-gay terrorism by influencing the Government to sign it into law, that may be why I didn't have the faintest clue what your comment referred to. If you spend five minutes looking into this, you ought to be able to find out more about Uganda's situation with the Kill the Gays bill, who backs it, how they've backed it, and from that, you ought to have a bigger, reality-based picture of the issue.

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            by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:53:31 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  But nobody has tied this fucking asshole to the (0+ / 0-)

              goings on in Uganda.

              I was asking for help to do that, but neither you nor anybody else has come forward with information.

              Why is it so terrible to ask for facts -- not facts about Scott Lively, not facts about some unnamed other evangelicals, but facts about this fucking asshole?

              LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

              by dinotrac on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:06:09 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I have. See upthread. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2, No10oX, milton333

                Also, you seem to presume that some evangelicals are just hanging out en masse in Uganda to do some good there or spread the Lord's good name? That's a bad presumption to make and well discredited. There is a specific agenda that you aren't factoring from American evangelicals who go to Uganda to spread the Good Word, period.

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                by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 10:12:35 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  He is trolling you MO (9+ / 0-)

              He asked a question, you answered and if he/she is too godammed lazy to go look, you do not have to indulge.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 11:05:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Thanks twigg (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                twigg, rocksout

                I am used to these sorts of back-and-forths with friends, and much more so, my spouse, and absolutely don't notice when I get wrapped up.

                We can go for days. Months. Anyone else would be bored to tears. We went back and forth about something recently that started two years ago and was only finally, finally resolved.

                So thanks for the kindly word and recognizing that I don't mean to be so totally literal. People mistake it for emotional. It's not. It's a kind of literalness which I like to think makes me endearing, hahaha. It's a good thing I also have a great sense of humor or else everyone would find me tedious, I fear. ;)

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                by mahakali overdrive on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 12:44:30 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Wrong (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        milton333

        I understand your point but just for the record the US is not even close to having the highest murder rate.  Check out Burundi, or Venezuela, or Honduras, or Pakistan, or.....well here's the link.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

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