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View Diary: Only Thing that Can Stop a Bad Guy With a Gun is a...Unarmed Teacher (268 comments)

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  •  Vicky soto conversed with lanza. (15+ / 0-)

    And he didn't care.

    When disparity of force is in place, what works to overcome that disparity in situation A is not guaranteed to overcome that disparity in situation B.

    In other words, talking to the madman is only going to work if the madman is amenable to talking.

    If the madman isn't in the mood to gab, then the entire cast of The View talking at him isn't going to do jack shit.

    It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

    by JayFromPA on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 03:34:41 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Which of course is also true with guns (68+ / 0-)

      A teacher with a hand gun facing an assault rifle would still be in a situation of disparity. Shooting back might or might not work depending on reaction time of said lunatic, not to mention how many rounds he had in his clip. I suppose a grenade launcher coulda solved the inequity.

    •  Sure, but an armed "peace officer" (40+ / 0-)

      on campus may not either. See: Columbine (and Tucson, I believe).

      In other words, there is no sure 100% guaranteed way of stopping someone with a loaded weapon -- but talking the gun-holder down may be at least as effective, at least as often, as trying to outshoot him. Which is directly contrary to what the NRA and gun-dealers would like us to believe.

      •  Why not do both? (4+ / 0-)

        If an assailant comes into the classroom, the unarmed teacher has one option - talk - while the armed teacher has the option of talking or shooting back.

        Having more options is a good thing.

        It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

        by JayFromPA on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:06:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Lovely (48+ / 0-)

          Hope your kids enjoy that armed classroom.  My kids would be staying home.

          And I can assure you, my school teacher DiL will give up the profession before she goes "packing" to school.

          Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

          by Miss Blue on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:13:49 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  armed teachers (22+ / 0-)

          As some of the RKBA people on this site have mentioned, the importance of keeping weapons locked and in a safe place.  A classroom full of curious students is not the place to have a weapon ready and available.

          What is to keep the angry student from taking the gun from this armed teacher?  I, as a former classroom teacher, would not feel comfortable with a gun strapped to my waist.

          After Columbine, the school where I taught, we were told to keep our doors locked to prevent someone from just walking in.  Needless to say many teachers violated this rule because of the inconvenience of having their key ready at all times.

          The outside doors (14 I believe) were also to be kept locked.  People, teachers and students blocked them open, allowed access that should not have been there.

          Also during the changing of classes, two of the outside doors were critical to students making it to classes in the time allotted for passing.

          There are many issues that should be covered before allowing teachers to arm themselves in the classroom.

          'If you are curious, you are not bored. If you are bored, you grow old.' Lillian Gish

          by Jakkalbessie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:30:14 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Since Sandy Hook, the doors to the main office (5+ / 0-)

            at my school have been locked. Because teachers and students need access to the office, however, the secretaries have propped the doors open with blocks of wood.

            They say in an emergency they can just pull them shut...

            When the union's inspiration /Through the workers' blood shall run /There can be no power greater /Anywhere beneath the sun /Solidarity Forever!

            by litho on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:04:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  All or nothing huh? (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            drmah, Tom Anderson

            If a teacher is not comfortable carrying a gun, then don't, but the minority (probably) of teachers and administrators who are comfortable carrying a gun should have the option.

            I had a former school teacher and current school administrator in a Chicago school come into my gun shop a few weeks ago and the first thing she declared is that she is a school administrator and definitely beleives administrators and teachers should have the option to carry a gun.

            NO option is 100% instantly effective 100% of the time so nothing practical that has the potential to work against a given problem should either be eliminated out of hand or considered the only solution. Putting retired LE and military volunteers with a concealed pistol at the front door of a school is a practical low cost option that combined with other options will make our children safer.  Teachers are required to know CPR because an ambulance or school nurse may not get to the child in time.  Likewise, the police will not get to the school on time if some maniac goes on a shooting rampage.  That is why the more people on scene, with basic medical skill and/or shooting skill will always be better than the proffessionals you have to wait for.  Sure, a teacher might not alway get a kid breathing or the armed guard might not defeat the gun man, but why the hell wouldn't you want a person there to try?

            There is so much irrational fear of guns.  I am around people all day, with varying levels of training, who carry guns.  My exposure to guns and armed civilians (and LE) is extremely high, yet nothing goes awry simply because of the presence of guns.

            •  Your exposure is high, yes (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lirtydies, Smoh, Nowhere Man

              But that is voluntary.  It is a big leap to having an armed sentry meet children at the door when they come to school.  While I see where you are coming from, I hope you can see that not everyone is going to be comfortable with that idea.  And pointing out how "irrational" that is will not win any converts.

              There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

              by slothlax on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:39:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Such an insane suggestion obvioucly comes from a (12+ / 0-)

              person who never had the responsibility for teaching a classroom of six year olds.  Being a good security guard means being aware of all of the enviornment ---- which takes the teacher out of the classroom and diverts her attention from the children.  The entire learning miliu would get a lot more dangerous!

            •  what about schools with multiple entry points (9+ / 0-)

              As I mentioned, the school I taught in had at least 14 doors from the outside in.  Do you have an armed guard at each of those?   What are the logistics?  As a teacher, would we be apprised of each of these guards names, etc.  There was an instance at this same school when I saw a man walking out of the math wing that I did not recognize.  He did not have on a visitor badge so I asked if I could help him.

              He told me he did not need my help and I could go on about my way.  By the way, he was armed but was not showing any kind of official indentification.  I followed him up to the front of school where I got the attention of one of the assistant principals and expressed my concern about his refusal to explain in any way why he was on the campus.  I was not totally satisfied by the answer given but did signal to the administration that armed outsiders were not to just be allowed to come on campus without some sort of identification.

              'If you are curious, you are not bored. If you are bored, you grow old.' Lillian Gish

              by Jakkalbessie on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:41:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Sorry but there is so much conventional wisdom (14+ / 0-)

              fail in your comment that I cannot let it pass.

              For example

              military volunteers
              Pfffttt.  Who's going to do the screening and background checks?

              We need to rehire all the teachers laid off in the last couple of years before we spend money on mandatory screening and background check for such volunteers.

               How else would you identify troubled vets?  There is so much domestic violence and suicidal behavior by vets  now that I cannot believe you would even suggest this.

              Move Single Payer Forward? Join 18,000 Doctors of PNHP and 185,000 member National Nurses United

              by divineorder on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:52:14 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Are you serious?!? (20+ / 0-)
              Putting retired LE and military volunteers with a concealed pistol at the front door of a school is a practical low cost option that combined with other options will make our children safer.
              Holy shit, what are you smoking?

              You are aware, perhaps, that the DC Sniper was a National Guard veteran, that Timothy McVeigh was a veteran...

              Being a veteran is no guarantee that you have good intentions, in fact there are many examples of veterans with mental problems.  

              All you morons with delusions of grandeur have been watching way too many Hollywood movies and have no frickin' idea what you're talking about.

              Twenty kids died at Sandy Hook.  A couple thousand died this year in car accidents.  Maybe those veterans ought to be out at the bars at night offering to be designated drivers and giving defensive driving lessons in the daytime instead.  It would save more lives.

              •  Yup, it's on the rec list right now: (4+ / 0-)

                Sherriff Joe's Armed School Protection "Posse" includes Convicts & Sex Offenders

                This is what this rotten to the core 'movement' has wrought.

              •  ...and retired LE officers (5+ / 0-)

                are retired for a reason: either they are old, or they are injured in some way that makes them unfit for duty. So let's eliminate the obviously unfit immediately, and we're left with a bunch of people like me: their reflexes aren't what they used to be, their eyesight isn't what it used to be, and they don't think as fast as they used to. They've probably put on a few pounds and don't move so fast anymore, either.

                Just the people I'd want guarding a school full of kids.

                "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

                by sidnora on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 05:33:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I get the sense that (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Laconic Lib, Bisbonian, trumpeter

                there are too many people here steeped in movie fantasies of the powerful guy with the weapons who protects a whole town from a posse of bad guys. 'Morons with delusions of grandeur" is what I think of when I read a post suggesting how easy and sensible it would be to turn schools into fortresses guarded by people with deadly weapons.

                I also get the sense from some of the posts responding to the frothy-mouthed gun nuts that some on the left have orgasms over the thought of insurrection and violence. I know my sister and her friends back in their SDS days 40 years ago did. There's a certain romance to the rugged individuals taking to the hills and surviving on their wits against the big, bad government, and I think some here have been infected with it.

                Something about the issue of guns makes some Americans lose their power to think rationally. And it's not just far right extremists who sound like they kiss their guns goodnight.

                Jon Husted is a dick.

                by anastasia p on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:13:23 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  Chicago's public schools have lots of problems, (0+ / 0-)

              and arming the staff and faculty is not going to make them go away or make the schools safer places conducive to learning.

            •  the reason why there is so much Irrational (0+ / 0-)

              fear of guns is because it is quite  frightening to realize that someone can use a gun to kill one' s self, one' s colleagues, one' s students.  A single mistake with a gun can kill.  It is quite natural and reasonable to have an irrational fear of guns, and that fear has prevented more deaths than guns ever did.

              And do the NRA parents ever realize that their children can, on occasion lapse into insufferable behavior at the very moment when a long suffering, underpaid, overtaxed, teacher is finally pushed over the brink.  Will they have the nerve (rhetorical) to sue the school over their plugged hellion?

              I have met some very good Christian teachers who had an  erratic explosion once in a great while.  I have also known of little darlings who get a big thrill out of taking teachers things.

              Thanks folks.  A gun toting teacher is not acceptable.  It causes more problems than it solves.

              •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

                I do not believe it is reasonable to have an irrational fear.

                I believe it is reasonable to have a rational fear.

                The difference is education and knowledge. Lots of folks right here in DK are still responding as if guns can be possessed by evil spirits and have the self-will to go off on their own.

                It's a hunch of mine that most folks who have irrational fear of guns gained their gun education and gun knowledge from movies, where the special effects crew 'massage' reality into the fiction of the big screen.

                It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:12:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  perhaps semantic (0+ / 0-)

                  but a rational fear is proportional to the price (emotional, financial, social) Times the event probability.  I count the cost of lost children infinite to the families and very large to the community.  

                  Even if the probability is small, as it indeed is, the price is unacceptably high.  The fear is both reasonable and unreasonable.  it is all too reasonable to fear the unreasonable.

                  It seems to me irrational to say that the price ( indignities Times miniscule number) is at all "reasonable".  

                  There are two possibilities in your formulation.  The evil spirits can be denied access to guns, or we can accept the loss of our children, friends, public figures, and others.  I am clear that guns must be restricted.

          •  I assess student threats (3+ / 0-)

            one time, a couple of middle school kids were planning to take the gun from the cop during lunchtime and shoot up the place....one kid was to distract him while the other went for the gun...I am not making this up.

            •  It's called a retention holster for a reason. (0+ / 0-)

              They are always outside-the-waistband holsters, like cops wear, because inside-the-waistband holsters are concealed and not subject to surprise grabs.

              Cops typically have a level three holster, which basically means there are three different mechanisms in place to secure the weapon in the holster.

              One it typically the tension screw. I causes the holster to have tension on the weapon, keeping it in place by a tight fit. Most folks test the tightness by shaking the holster hard enough to make it hold tightly even when at a full run. You have to pull the weapon free with intent.

              Another is typically a thumb break. That's the button snap or velcro strap that wraps across the back. Safariland is a common retention holster company, and they have some high strength strap systems that use steel hinges so the strap must be pressed and swiveled out of the way - that is two mechanisms in one, making it a level three holster if combined with the tension screw.

              There are other additions. One is an internal shaped length of plastic that grabs the edge of the ejection port of a holstered weapon and your thumb must push on the end that is hidden between your pants and the holster in order to release the weapon. That little shaped plastic grabber cannot be seen by anyone else.

              Another addition is a half hood that physically obstructs anyone that is not standing right next to the holster. And I mean grinding hips close, sexual harassment close, to that holster. None of that three feet away 'standing next to him' close, that doesn't work, because of the next item...

              Common to all of these is that the holster is of a rigid frame. It may be part leather, but duty cops use these and they are designed for the weapon to need to be pulled straight out.

              Combine enough of these, and you easily end up with a holster of level five or six that the wearer can still draw and fire in one second or less because they are familiar with the actions required to draw and have practiced, but

              Assess that.

              It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

              by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:22:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  So what? (6+ / 0-)

                You're having a love affair with violence and guns. It adds little to the discussion.

                Jon Husted is a dick.

                by anastasia p on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:14:16 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  yeah, he/she missed the point (0+ / 0-)

                  i assess the the threat, not whether it is able to be carried out or not. I'm a clinical social worker not a cop. I assess along with a pscyhologist and a psychiatrist. Sometimes a neurologist ( I've seen cases where early mono presented as bizarre behavior ) second, there are kids out there who plan these sorts of things. you ony hear about the ones who succeed. I can tell you the cop, who I knew since boyhood, was pretty shocked by it. But of course he is no longer in the school as the money for such security ( which comes from the school budget not the municipal one ) was cut as a result of Christie's cuts in school aid so the rich could get a tax cut....I know the kids couldn't carry it out; my brother is a 30 year veteran detective. Whether the kids could pull it off doesn't matter from a treatment perspective. What matters is that they were serious.

              •  you know so much (0+ / 0-)

                do you spend a lot of time at the uniform supply store?

                •  I pay attention. (0+ / 0-)

                  I admit I don't know everything, and when an issue comes up I try to learn about all of the various components of that issue.

                  When I escaped assault in 2008 just because I was in a moving vehicle and the guy in the other moving vehicle couldn't get to me and didn't have anything to throw (he was frothing about "that kenyan soshalist"), I decided to learn about "bearing arms". That means both components, concealed carry and open carry. And learning about open carry necessarily introduces you to the countermeasures used to prevent a gun grab.

                  Just about everything I described about retention holsters was learned in maybe an hour. This info isn't as "secret society" as some people may think. It's all laid out right there on the internet.

                  This is what I purchased, a safariland model 6280: http://www.safariland.com/...

                  The video is quite educational. It's only seven minutes.

                  It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                  by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 04:32:41 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Look, i actually thought your little piece was (0+ / 0-)

                    informative. i did not like the flip tone at the end..."asess that". I know plenty of people with guns. i got a BIL who has a concealed carry permit in ME for no good reason that I can determine except he doesn't like some of the mean dogs in the very rural neighborhood.For me, I'll just plain say it; i don't like guns. I don't like people having them. The stats just aren't there to support having a weapon in the home for protection; the overwhelming likelihood is that the weapon will be used on a family member, and the mostlikely person to murder someone is a family member. BUt we are stuck with this 2nd amendment and that is difficult for those of us who feel that guns should just be illegal except for clearly defined reasons ( hunting, limited self security, limited private security ) and that ownership should be a privilege like driving. A privilege that can be easily denied or revoked. Having said that, I know that I do not live in such a country. But the current situation is untenable, and there is nothing in the Constitution that prevents reasonable gun control laws. By the way I have been attacked by rabid right wingers too. One threw a walker at me in the park and another swung his cane at me in the supermarket. Frankly, Jay, I feel safer at the Philly zoo, where I spent many hours with my kids ( and the neighborhood ain't great ) than in some of those rural areas of PA. I hope you never have to fire your weapons.

                    •  About that flip tone. (0+ / 0-)
                      I assess student threats (3+ / 0-)

                      one time, a couple of middle school kids were planning to take the gun from the cop during lunchtime and shoot up the place....one kid was to distract him while the other went for the gun...I am not making this up.

                      I read that and on the strength of one hour actually learning about the anti-"go for the gun" measures involved in duty holsters I 'assessed' the likelihood of success as 'unlikely'.

                      Your assessment may have been off, because of your ignorance. And the assessment of the danger of guns made by many people is also exaggerated by their ignorance. It's well documented the times that having a gun in the house allows a person to fuck up and create a dead body, but that's because there's a dead body. What's not so well documented is the number of times that having a gun in the house allows a person to halt an attack without creating any dead bodies. Just because the bodies are documented doesn't me that the undocumented avoided bodies aren't more in number.

                      It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                      by JayFromPA on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 02:05:28 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Again Jay, my assessment determines intent (0+ / 0-)

                        not success. If you are serious about getting a suitcase bomb, you require further evaluation. Even though you are not going to get such a weapon. You will likely move on to something more attainable, like a handgun. I just want you to know what we are up against in the schools on a daily basis; most threats are utter bullshit, a few are real but unlikely to be carried out, and a few happen. We've had incidents in my school district where I work. One involved automatic weapons. Two kids shot, survived. Another involved a stabbing. Kid survived ( barely through the use of a trauma center airlift ). Kids can be cagey. I had two guys in a detention center go to a hearing, steal the social worker's keys and drive from Jersey City to Harrisburg PA before getting caught.

                        •  And your assessment is colored by your knowledge. (0+ / 0-)

                          Seriously, don't you get that?

                          I read you using this dogwhistle...

                          We've had incidents in my school district where I work. One involved automatic weapons. Two kids shot, survived.
                          Automatic weapons. Why do you use the adjective? Does the adjective describe the weapon the way you think it does? Well, the policy wonk in me says you are likely just regurgitating a phrase that was fed to you, without you even realizing it. First, you likely mean "semi automatic" and not really "automatic". So score one point for misuse of a term that actually matters when discussing policy. And whenever the discussion ventures anywhere near the intersection of schools and guns it is a safe bet that policy is in the back of people's minds.

                          I'm nearly forty years old. Semi-automatic firearms are older than me.
                          My grandfather was born in 1903. Semi-automatic firearms are older than him.

                          So when you make assessments and toss around "automatic weapons", are you or are you not just a little more concerned because of the phrase that you are using, when it actually has no bearing on the weapon at hand?

                          Seriously, semi-auto weapons are older than the ice cream scoop, older than the invention of candy corn. People had semi-auto weapons before flyswatters existed. There were folks that had been wearing semi-automatic weapons on their belt for years before the thumbtack came along.

                          And yet the judgement you use to assess things is colored by "automatic weapons", as if they were somehow worthy of being singled out special. Semi-auto handguns are a solid 120 years old. Semi auto shotguns are a hair younger at 115. But the actual automatic weapons, full auto, have been around for 129 years.

                          So it's silly to get more worked up over a kid's threat to use "automatic weapons" versus a kid's threat to use "weapons".

                          Jeez, it's people who don't know when to get worked up and when not to get worked up who call the cops because a six year old is having a tantrum and throws the pencils. Call the cops for that? Really?

                          I'm going to keep the flip tone until I stop seeing people on the left spit out dogwhistle terms and phrases that were fed to them by the media.

                          It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                          by JayFromPA on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 02:23:47 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

          •  Not just an "angry student" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh

            What about a merely curious first or second grader who wanted to check out teacher's gun when the teacher's back was turned or she was working with another student? She'd literally have to have the gun on her person at all times.

            Jon Husted is a dick.

            by anastasia p on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:06:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I had a teacher (0+ / 0-)

              in 6th grade who used to take her prosthetic arm off and leave it on her desk.

              Kids messed with it all of the time.  Because they were curious, and because they could.

              (She allowed that, because she wanted us to be comfortable with the idea).

              I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

              by trumpeter on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 10:13:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  That is unacceptable behaviour from the teacher. (0+ / 0-)

              It stays on you while you are out of the house. Period. End of story.

              It's plenty easy for women to conceal carry.

              Watch this 28 year old, 5 foot 4 inches, 120 pound girl show you how it's done. Summer cotton dresses, strapless dresses, shorts and a tank top, belly jeans,

              It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

              by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:29:00 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Because that's a stupid idea. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          radical simplicity, Smoh

          Your ideas are laughable, though eerily insane.

          Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

          by mungley on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:22:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I hope you wern't one of the ones (32+ / 0-)

          that was telling us that teachers are overpaid. I mean, after all, you are suggesting that one of the qualifications of being a "good" teacher is bringing out the best in our children with one hand and shooting an eye out of an assailant with the other.

          You know there's this old adage about combat that goes something like this: "No one never knows how anyone is going to act until they are facing live rounds whizzing by them and even killing their friends"

          That's of course about trained combat troops who go into battle wired tight and are usually with their buddies who they trust.

          A teacher is not expecting an assailant. A teacher isn't wired for a shoot out. They aren't trained for mortal combat.  Yet somehow, nut jobs  think they should be armed and ready to do battle for 30G a year and most of the same people who call for arming teachers also demand they should never bargain collectively for  a raise. In fact they should be exemplary leaders in taking the first hits in this new austerity drive.

          They should also teach children at the same time and even do a little parenting and social work on the side. Then there the nights grading papers. There are the days spending their own money buying school supplies which leads us right into the next subject:

          I imagine, since we still have to be audacious in our demands for austerity, The same teacher , according to the gospel of the righteously wrong will have to pay for their own handguns, pay for the ammunition, pay for the training and the practice ammo and pass a proficiency test where they can hit a fly's pecker at 1500 yards with a handgun.

          So after they spend all that money , where in the hell are they gonna afford to sleep at night so they can be ready to teach every day and also be ready for the OK Corral shootout in Room 133, whenever that may come?

          Anyone who talks about arming teachers can't be taken seriously and should be shouted off whatever platform they are using.  

        •  If you had some of the teachers I had (7+ / 0-)

          you would not want them to be anywhere in the vicinity of a gun.

        •  I would rather hire more teachers than armed (7+ / 0-)

          guards.  We are laying off teachers, so where is the money for armed guards going to come from?

          "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

          by Sychotic1 on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:23:03 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's why you let them be armed. (0+ / 0-)

            Two birds, one stone.

            Let the ones that feel like addressing the issue self-select into a firearm course and into a conceal carry license and into target practice. Those that self-select into firearm proficiency should be able to have a conversation with school administration so they can carry concealed on school grounds.

            And if you are one of those people who have the daft thought that the gun would be in teacher's desk, because they couldn't possibly conceal it effectively throughout the school day, leading to nonsense from the kids...

            Watch this compendium of conceal carry options demonstrated by a 5 foot 4 inch, 120 pound, 28 year old wearing attractive and fashionable clothing.

            It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

            by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:35:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No. Just no. (0+ / 0-)

              I have an extensive history with firearms and I, for one, would never let my child in a classroom where I knew there was a gun.

              "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

              by Sychotic1 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 at 08:54:28 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  No one becomes a teacher (6+ / 0-)

          with the idea that they will also be an armed peace officer.  If I had been told I had to train with weapons and carry a loaded gun into class, I would never have become a teacher.  If I had thought it would be the law that students could come into my class with a concealed weapon, that would have been my last day of teaching.

          People who suggest arming teachers and turning them into cops have little understanding of what it takes to keep a classroom of students engaged in learning, be it at the level of the primary grades or graduate students.  Many students in this country spend every day in a community and school drenched in fear and driven by violence.  No one can learn effectively in such an atmosphere.  Nor can they learn how to interact with others in a productive and civil manner.

          We need to reduce the suffocating atmosphere of fear and violence, not import it into every classroom and school in the damned country.  My understanding is that violence in this country dropped when universal public education became available.  Why?  Because children learned how to behave in a group and how to treat each other in a civil manner.  They learned about cooperation and compromise, as well as impulse control.

        •  Armed teacher has one more option: being the (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, Laconic Lib, Bisbonian, trumpeter

          source of a (or an additional) weapon for a "bad guy."

          Really friggin' bad idea.

          Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
          I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
          —Spike Milligan

          by polecat on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:51:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, Tucson as well (41+ / 0-)

        There were multiple armed people in the crowd during the Tucson shooting, yet the assailant was brought down by unarmed people that jumped him when he stopped to reload.  Until he stopped to reload, there was nothing anyone, including the armed people in the crowd, could do.

        •  "I almost shot the man holding the gun" (32+ / 0-)

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Ed Show interview:

          Ed: joe, take a moment and tell us exactly,went down. what was the first thing you saw? did you get in the gunman's face when he was on the ground. tell us what happened.

          Joe: as i came out of the door the -- i saw several individuals wrestling with him. and i came running. i was already at a full sprint and you know, there's no time to think about anything. i saw another individual holding the firearm. i kind of assumed he was the shooter. so i grabbed his wrist and you know told him to drop it and force him to drop the gun on the ground. when he did that, everybody says, no, no, it's this guy. it's this guy and i proceeded to help that man down. you know he's trying to square him but not very long at least it didn't seem like he was trying very hard though. i'm a big guy, though, 220 and i was holding him the down so he wasn't going anywhere.
          ...
          Ed: did you ever think in drawing your firearm or you made the determination you didn't have to?

          Joe: sir, when i came through the door, i had my hand on the bud of my pistol and i clicked the safety off, i was ready to kill him. but i didn't have to do that and i was very blessed that i didn't have to go to that place. luckily, they'd already it's gun solution so all i had to do was help. they hadn't grabbed him and he'd still been moving i would have shot him. i almost shot the man holding the gun.

          "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

          by Hayate Yagami on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:44:40 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            UFOH1

            It shows the guy with the gun arriving on a chaotic scene was able to keep his head and use good judgment. The account actually goes against your implied point.

            •  Not sure what you think my point was (18+ / 0-)

              But it sure as hell blows the "good guy with a gun" argument out of the water, and the Tucson shooting proves why caps on magazine size are hugely beneficial.

              But anyway, since you seem to be the armchair commando type, here are a few hypothetical scenarios:
              #1: You have a gun. You see two people shooting at each other, with gunshot victims on the ground around them. What do you do? (Arriving on the scene of an active "armed response)

              #2: You have a gun. You hear gunshots, and then see one person with a gun shoot anther person with a gun, and gunshot victims around them. What do you do? (Arriving on the scene after one shooter, though possibly not the original gunman, has been neutralized)

              #3: You have a gun. You see lots of people with guns shooting at each other, with gunshot victims around them. What do you do? (Chaotic response to a shooter)

              "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

              by Hayate Yagami on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 06:53:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Bull pucky. (0+ / 0-)

                The guy Joe did exactly what a trained cop would do.
                He was ready to act, but chose not to act because of the tangle of people
                He at first addressed the person holding the weapon. If you think a cop's number one issue would be dealing with that weapon, think again!

                Think about it... A cop comes out of the store upon hearing shots. A cop would have his hand on his weapon, ready to act. A cop would see the tangle of people in a grappling struggle and choose not to shoot. And a cop's first point of attention would be removing the gun from the control of whomever was holding it.

                So why are you shitting on Joe, when he made the best choices possible in the blink of an eye; while the cops in front of the empire state building shot nine bystanders?

                It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:41:13 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  No, it shows that he was within seconds (21+ / 0-)

              of shooting an innocent person ... and knows how close he was to a lifelong and life-changing regret. Perhaps after he shot the guy who had wrestled away the shooter's gun, the shooter might have been able to get away or recapture his gun and lots more death might have ensued. It was largely good luck that none of that happened.

              As a gun shop owner, you might consider the possibility that your opinion is conditioned by the old Upton Sinclair quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

              Help us to save free conscience from the paw Of hireling wolves whose gospel is their maw. ~John Donne

              by ohiolibrarian on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 06:54:54 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This. Exactly this. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hayate Yagami, Smoh
                As a gun shop owner, you might consider the possibility that your opinion is conditioned by the old Upton Sinclair quote, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
                Stoy, I'm willing to assume that your heart is in the right place. But I also have to assume that your reasoning is biased by your livelihood; otherwise, I have to nix the first assumption.

                Let us all have the strength to see the humanity in our enemies, and the courage to let them see the humanity in ourselves.

                by Nowhere Man on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 09:05:44 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  The NRA free-for-all wet dream. Shoot anything (5+ / 0-)

            that moves, doesn't matter if it is a good guy, bad guy, collateral damage, whatnot.

            /facepalm

            Happy little moron, Lucky little man.
            I wish I was a moron, MY GOD, Perhaps I am!
            —Spike Milligan

            by polecat on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:56:44 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  There were not several armed people. (8+ / 0-)

          There was one man who came out during the struggle.  He could not tell who the shooter was and he did not draw his weapon.  Three unarmed people tackled jared Loughner as he attempted to reload.

          AZ is a concealed carry state for almost anyone, training or not, so perhaps that's where this rumor began about several armed people in the crowd.  It's just not so.

          Research Shows Poverty Creates the Biggest Achievement Gap.

          by Desert Rose on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:00:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for the correction (9+ / 0-)

            I had read there was more than one person in the crowd with a gun, but I'll take your word for it.  Either way, the point stands.  The need to reload is what helped bring the shooter down, not a gun.

            •  That is the take away lesson, for sure. (5+ / 0-)

              Research Shows Poverty Creates the Biggest Achievement Gap.

              by Desert Rose on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 04:00:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, it was the slowness of the reload. (0+ / 0-)

                Something you can try at home, if you have one of those wooden knife set holders:

                Take all the knives out of the block and set them aside.

                Take a paring knife about at long as the distance between the tip of your index finger to the heel of your hand, and take a long knife about a foot in total length.

                Take the paring knife and hold it in your hand, handle at the heel and with the tip of the knife even with the tip of your index finger. Edge away from the skin, please. Now slowly make the motion of inserting the paring knife into the wood block by pointing your index finger at the end of the target hole, touching the tip of that finger to the block (which aligns the tip of the blade with the hole) and push the paring knife into the slot. That's a fairly simple feat of dexterity, when you use the physical mnemonics of putting the tip of the finger at the edge of the slot and then just pushing in. If you had a grip on the wood block in such a way that you could just put finger tip next to a knuckle, you could put that paring knife into the slot without looking at all. You could get pretty quick at the no-look insertion of the paring knife if you practiced.

                Now take the long knife. You cannot hold it in the same manner, because it's much longer. The physical mnemonics do not work the same way. You HAVE to look at the tip of the long knife blade. You HAVE to look also at the slot on the wood block. You HAVE to also look at the angle of the blade and the orientation of it, to align it with the slot. These extra requirements take extra time and concentration. These extra requirements do not disappear with practice.

                Loughner used the long stick magazines, adding extra time and concentration to his reload that would not have been there had he used the standard paring knife size magazine for that pistol.

                We got lucky. We have all heard of the idiot who holds up the bank and writes the stickup note on one of his household bills, and we are glad that the guy's mistake meant a benefit for the rest of us. Well, loughner's idiocy in using the cumbersome long stick magazine meant a benefit for the rest of us, in that his choice created the delay that others used to tackle him. We got lucky.

                It's safe to trust a sane person with the keys to nuclear weapons, but it's not safe to trust an insane person with the cleaners under the kitchen sink.

                by JayFromPA on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 03:57:57 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  Why artifically limit options. (0+ / 0-)

        The Columbine officer was in the parking lot at the time the shooters entered.

        These situations are already unpredictable, enough.

        It's very doubtful any amount of talking would have stopped, much less, slowed the Virginia Tech shooter.

        Instructors and staff can be educated on the use of a full range of legal options, from negotiation to, if necessary, lethal force.

        Artificially limiting options based on a perception is the very model of security theatre.

        The whole decade needs an asterisk.

        by James Kresnik on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 08:35:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  And the solution is? (30+ / 0-)

      You are never going to have armed teachers.  I bet the majority of teachers wouldn't want that.  That is not a viable solution.  You can't force people to carry weapons around a school, nor would you want a gun in every teacher's desk ripe for a swiping (since stolen guns are actually often part of the problem).

      So the other solution is, what, armed guards at every school?  Putting aside the fact that there are many examples of armed people being completely unable to stop a mass shooter, who is going to pay for all of these armed guards?  And rather than having thugs called "posses" running around our schools with loaded guns, where and how are we going to locate and hire all of these qualified and mentally stable people to carry guns on a daily basis around our children?

      Honestly, I think the entire armed guard/the-only-way-to-take-out-an-armed-bad-guy-is-with-an-armed-good-guy is just a method of changing the subject.  Logistically, having armed guards at EVERY. SCHOOL. in sufficient numbers to actually make a difference (i.e., more than one eating lunch in his car while the armed bad guy enters the school from the other side of the building) is pretty much logistically impossible.  

      The only way to actually prevent mass shootings in schools is to make it impossible for these mass murderers to get their hands on weapons of mass murder.  Since we can't make it impossible, the best we can do is make it as difficult as possible.  

      Honestly, I would be fine with armed guards being a part of the solution, but I think that will be far less affective than actually getting rid of a crap load of guns and banning a crap load of others.  I, as a parent, would just want to be confident that the armed guards are mentally stable non-bullies that are sufficiently trained with not just shooting their gun, but also with how to react in high adrenaline situations (like, they should be actual cops).  But of course, that does nothing to protect people in malls or movie theaters.

      •  How do Cuts Get us Armed Guards? (32+ / 0-)

        I love that the same people who want us to have armed guards in nearly 100,000 schools also fight to break police unions and eagerly cut funding for the actual armed guards we already have (cops). I'm sure they were all cheering Mitt when he mocked Obama for wanting to add more police officers.

        •  How about giving those hundreds of millions (18+ / 0-)

          of dollars to the schools?
          How about hiring some teachers?
          It might take a little longer, but a better educated society will be less violent.  We will have fewer economically desperate people committing crimes.

          As with your suggestion there are tons of better ways to spend that money.

          Take back the House in 2014!!!!!!!!!!!! (50 state strategy needed)

          by mungley on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:29:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Volunteers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          drmah

          There are plenty of retired LE and military who would volunteer to spend a few hours standing at the main entrance of a school in their community.  People who have a deep drive to protect other people. Pretty much every school in the country only has one door open to the outside after students arrive. Put the guy or gal with the concealed handgun at that entrance.  Is it 100% guaranteed?  Hell no, but most communities already have school resource police officers available at least part of the time, why not increase the coverage?  Of course these volunteers would have to pass a background check.  Duh.  That doesn't cost much or anything; it can be done for free by at the local police department.

          •  Child abusers and perf all over the country would (8+ / 0-)

            be volunteering!  Get real!

          •  Yeah right (11+ / 0-)

            I would sure be confident of my child's safety if there was an armed vigilante with a happy trigger finger guarding the door.

            I'm sorry, but no.  Volunteers with guns is a terrible idea.  If this is really our solution to gun violence in schools, I think anti-tax republicans can find it in their hearts to make the protection of our schools a paid and professional gig.  Of course, I'm sure they'd be happy to slash funds from the already grossly underfunded education budgets, but it is the least that is acceptable.  "Posses," thugs, bullies on a power  trip with loaded guns in their pocket and nothing motivating them but the possibility of an armed show down at an elementary school have no business on any campus.  I have seen way too many absolute gun freaks on tv that I know would be waiting in line for the opportunity.

            The only reason our schools are at risk is that such a huge segment of our population insists on their "right" to play with weapons capable of committing massacres in minutes.  In exchange, I think they should be willing to advocate for the funds necessary to implement their "more guns is the solution" strategy.

          •  Have you ever been in a school? Ever? (13+ / 0-)

            Because if you had you would know this is idiotic.

            Pretty much every school in the country only has one door open to the outside after students arrive.

            Help us to save free conscience from the paw Of hireling wolves whose gospel is their maw. ~John Donne

            by ohiolibrarian on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 06:59:29 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Thanks for catching that! (9+ / 0-)

              A very large percentage of schools in California and the Southwest have NO hallways or Front Doors.  Open campus with courtyards.  So in that case, an armed guard would stand where?  In front of every classroom door?

              The whole idea is childish fantasy!  Never will happen, never would work.  Just complete nonsense.  It is like something a boy in 6th grade would dream up.

              Those who believe this BS need a serious reality check.

              •  Not just California and the southwest (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Smoh, Bisbonian, Nowhere Man, trumpeter

                I live in northeast Ohio in a suburb of Cleveland. Our town's high school* looks like something right out of Beverly Hills 90210, with wide doorless archways leading into a spacious outdoor courtyard.

                I think all of these vigilante solutions are the result of seeing too many movies, and yes, they all sound like something a grade school kids would dream up.

                *unfortunately the same school attended by Darrell Issa, although he couldn't make the grade and dropped out. Also three other former congressmen who weren't crazy.

                Jon Husted is a dick.

                by anastasia p on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:27:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Who is going to screen them, train them? I have a (12+ / 0-)

            very good friend who runs a security/body guard company. These guys are hard core, have worked with the Secret Service protecting visiting dignitaries etc. He thinks the idea is beyond stupid. You need highly trained seasoned people, those who know how to defuse a situation and protect people. They need to be seriously screened and psych tested. They need to know more than guns, they need to know hand to hand combat, how to disarm a shooter. This whole idea volunteers can do it is a recipe for disaster. I agree with someone upthread who pointed out al the money it would cost would be better spent improving schools and hiring teachers.

            The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die. ~ Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy

            by cherie clark on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 08:47:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Every time someone brings up vets (7+ / 0-)

              I want to point out that way too many of them have PTSD, TBI, etc.  Thanks for your friend's take, it corresponds completely with my experience in critical care during codes. You don't just go through a 2 day certification class and become competent to run a real code. The first one is almost always observation or recorder. After a few more you may actually have the control to run one.

              And that is in a situation where only one person is dead, rarely bloody, and no one is shooting bullets at people. If you and the rest of the crew get sloppy on protocol, you could get zapped when the defibrillator is fired. That is entirely in your own control.

              Put in the shooter, gun, bullets flying, blood, etc. the confusion and stress are increased exponentially. The level of training and control needed goes up as much.

              I want to ask some of these people what they are really afraid of. Some actually bring up the conspiracies, FEMA camps, etc. My defusing humor is that if we could speed up the legalization of marijuana, the whole country might mellow out...  (Disclaimer: the only experience I have is a couple brownies, in the mid 70's, which added nothing to the JD I had drunk.)

              "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

              by Ginny in CO on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 12:47:57 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  As a Coloradoan you undoubtedly know (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Laconic Lib, Bisbonian, Ginny in CO

                there have been a number of murders by vets in and around Colorado Springs.  This city is home to Fort Carson, a primary training facility for those sent to Iraq and Afghanistan, so there are many vets there who have come home from the Middle East with PTSD and other damage.  They are an unsuitable group to be working around kids while fully armed.  To say the very least.

                •  I haven't paid as much attention this past (0+ / 0-)

                  18 months due to my own problems. My experiences as an RN with vets spans 37 years and 4 states. I had been following a lot of the Fort Carson Iraq and Afghanistan vet reports, issues, etc.

                  Like the Nam vets of my generation, and WWII of my parents; the mangled bodies, lives, souls and families are an ongoing cause I try to keep up with - if only to keep my Congress critters and others paying attention, voting for more funding, benefits, outreach, etc.

                  I get caught between fury and tears because of what happens to these guys who wanted to do the right thing for their country (and ours).  Some are all too aware they aren't reliable and can do stuff ranging from being lousy family members to killing people. Others are too traumatized and brain damaged to understand much more than their life is destroyed and they are a burden to their families. Some just pull it out every day - they discipline themselves, get to counseling, classes, and whatever else is on the schedule.

                  Had an RN student 3 years ago this summer who was excellent and I think will do really well. But he sure had battles every day, and won them routinely. Patients really liked and respected him, as did the other students. It was a 2 year program and he was planning to go on as far as a masters. I think he was 23 or 24.

                  There are plenty who just want to pick up the pieces of their lives, put them back together and keep going.

                  The idea is potentially dangerous and strikes me as ungrateful. They've done a lot, many in very dangerous circumstances with major problems for the rest of their lives. Many had support jobs that did not involve combat training or experience. This seems to put them all in one category and so desperate for a job they will take anything offered. I think they deserve to have a good GI Bill and the opportunity to use it to go a lot farther than elementary school guard if they can. It's what my dad, uncle and father in law did.

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 05:56:04 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Thanks for your long response (0+ / 0-)

                    If I interpret correctly, you agree this is an inappropriate placement for people who have come home traumatized by war.  They need all the support they can get to find a place in society where they can be productive and useful and that will not trigger their past experiences.

              •  When people bring up vets, (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Smoh, Ginny in CO

                I think of some of the guys I served with, whom I would never trust with a kid or a gun, much less a combination of the two.

                I don't care what the right wing says - putting on a uniform does not make you a hero.

                They are not  all Gomer Pyle or Tim McVeigh (another veteran!) - many are a combination of the two, though most are nothing like either.

                I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

                by trumpeter on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 10:30:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It is a very mixed group. I certainly (0+ / 0-)

                  would expect if any wanted the job and could meet all the (stringent) requirements, they would not be excluded for unsubstantiated fear of being tainted by their service. As I explained in my comment to Heart of the Rockies, they deserve to choose a path they want to take and have the financial support to achieve the education needed, not get tossed a low level job that could be mostly boring.

                  BTW, I come from a non-religious family that loves puns and word jokes. Your sig was a great hit for the Christmas gathering. ;)

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 06:07:59 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Again, what are you smoking? (5+ / 0-)

            Who would screen these people?  How would they be armed?  How would they be identified to people in and around the school?  How would you know that this wasn't some crazy's dream ploy for being the perfect cover to get into a school armed like Rambo -- after all, he's supposed to be there, right?  He's volunteered.  And volunteering for a couple of weeks lets people get used to him while simultaneously letting him case the joint - what's the schedule, what's the building layout, when do the kids have lunch, gym, etc.  

            You know what I think about your idea for a background check?  I think that Lazner, who had no criminal record, would have passed with flying colors.  True, he wasn't law enforcement, but the point still stands that having no noteable criminal record doesn't signify anything in these cases.  John Wayne freakin' Gacy would've passed a freakin' standard background check.

          •  What makes you think (3+ / 0-)

            Retired military or le would WANT to? And especially as volunteers?

            You ever managed volunteers? You can't MAKE them do much of anything, and when they decide they don't want to show up, they don't.

            Besides that, what makes you think they can afford to volunteer? Most vets and le aren't rich. If you give them a choice between a potentially dangerous volunteer job and a safe one that pays even minimum wage, the paying gig wins, hands down.

          •  Liability issues would be staggering (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Bisbonian, Nowhere Man

            with a bunch of "volunteers." And who are these "volunteers" going to be? Bunch of old retired guys probably who may not be the sharpest shooters or have the quickest judgment. Fact is, most other people work during the day and can't afford to "volunteer" to tote a gun at their local school.

            Anyway, Maricopa County Arizona has already shot holes in your cute little fantasy.

            Jon Husted is a dick.

            by anastasia p on Fri Jan 11, 2013 at 07:22:16 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. The armed guard solution is A LIE by the (5+ / 0-)

          NRA, just as the NRA's attack on violent video games is theater, they have no intentions on following through with either, being allied with budget cutting politicians. It's a smokescreen, plain and simple, to divert attention and make a bunch of idiot wind noise, pissing in the wind. Smell the sulfur of that NRA pee.

      •  Since 2008, some districts in Texas have allowed (0+ / 0-)

        teachers who have received a CWL licence and went through an additional year of training, to carry concealed weapons to school.  It is still allowed.

        I taught in Texas during that time.

    •  OTOH, a gun more likely leads to escalation (25+ / 0-)

      In this case, the guy with the gun was talked down, and it was settled without additional violence. What if, as the NRA wants, he had been engaged with bullets? Instant mental escalation, which makes a peaceful resolution far more unlikely.

      "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."

      by Hayate Yagami on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:39:45 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  That helps make the point (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elginblt

      about the difference between the weapons used.

      Republicans want to make government small enough to fit in your vagina..

      by ramara on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 04:47:36 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Wow man... you got big...uns? (0+ / 0-)

      You da man Jayfrompa

      Infidels in all ages have battled for the rights of man, and have at all times been the advocates of truth and justice... Robert Ingersol

      by BMarshall on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 05:42:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Even if it distracts the gunman momentarily, (13+ / 0-)

      it would significantly cut the number of rounds fired from a semiautomatic weapon with a large magazine, at any humans in range.

      Another incident which did not become a massacre because of unarmed heroes interfering, has not been brought up enough.

      Knoxville Unitarian Universalist church shooting [Wiki]
      Location    Knoxville, Tennessee, United States
      Date    July 27, 2008
      Attack type    Shooting, political violence, hate crime
      Weapon(s)    Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun
      Deaths    2
      Injured    7
      Perpetrator    Jim David Adkisson

      "Greg McKendry stood in the front of the gunman and took the blast to protect the rest of us," witness Barbara Kemper said.

      But right behind him were John Bohstedt and Terry Uselton, participants in the play who jumped the gunman as he stopped to reload and restrained him until police arrived. [knoxnews.com emphasis added]

      The Unitarian Universalist church hosted a youth performance of Annie Jr. Some 200 people were watching the performance by 25 children when Adkisson entered the church and ... pulled a Remington Model 48 12-gauge shotgun out of a guitar case and began firing. At first, people thought that the loud bangs of the gunshots were part of the play. One person was killed at the scene: Greg McKendry (60), a longtime church member and usher who deliberately stood in front of the gunman to protect others. Later that night, a 61-year-old woman, Linda Kraeger, died from wounds suffered during the attack. Kraeger was a member of Westside Unitarian Universalist Church in Farragut. Others injured by the shotgun blasts include TVUUC member Tammy Sommers, and visitors John Worth, Joe Barnhart, Jack Barnhart, and Linda Chavez. Allison Lee was injured while escaping with her young children.
      The shooter was stopped when church members John Bohstedt, Robert Birdwell, Arthur Bolds, and Terry Uselton and visitor Jamie Parkey restrained him.
      The Knoxville Police Department (KPD) responded within three minutes of the 911 call, and ambulance services arrived only minutes later.[Wiki emphasis added]
      2 people killed, not 4, not 12, 26 or 32, no children. 7 people injured, not 8 to dozens. Would the numbers have been higher if he had a rifle instead of a shotgun? Possibly. Does it matter? Would it have changed the actions of the men who stopped him?

      McKendry's selfless action bought the congregation milliseconds to absorb the situation and correct the initial misconception by many that the shots were part of the play. Followed by mass movement to the floor and the five unarmed men who tackled and stopped him, getting prepared to effectively intervene.  Six unarmed, courageous, smart guys, who overcame high stress and emotions; stopped an armed, angry, misinformed white guy.

      De-escalation is an appropriate choice in any conflict. Guns are used to intimidate and threaten other people far more than for actual, justifiable self defense. Talking an armed person down - even cops and security guards - can save lives.

      Sometimes words are mightier than the sword, even if the sword is a semiautomatic wielded by a mentally unstable human. Trying may not stop death, it won't cause it.

      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

      by Ginny in CO on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 06:34:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  So the guy walks in with his semi-automatic (23+ / 0-)

      and his 100 bullet clip in place.  The teacher is supposed to ignore her 20-35 students, find the key, unlock the drawer, load the gun with the bullets stored nearby--unless she is really stupid enough to have a loaded gun available in an unlocked drawer--and face the shooter--who is by now reloading so he can shoot another 100 kids.  

      Or maybe the armed guard who is in the gym will get to the classroom on the other side of the building in time to save the third or fourth classroom from the shooter.  

      Or we give everyone in the building a weapon, including the 70-year-old substitute teacher, the volunteers who are working in the hallways with small groups of kids and the 8-month-pregnant secretary.  And they can all shoot up the halls and see who gets hit first.  Of course, since the shooter has that 100 bullet clip, they are all dead before they can put down their books/phones/ sandwich/ child and figure out where the gun went.

      More guns means more people die.  If  you don't see that,  you are fooling yourself.

      We should not be fighting about equal pay for equal work and access to birth control in 2012. Elizabeth Warren

      by Leftleaner on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 07:05:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  what this reaction about? This teacher talked down (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CwV, Smoh, Nowhere Man

      a kid with a gun who had already shot two people.  That was a situation that someone could act with civility and insure the safety of other children.  The Lnza guy was going to shoot whoever addresed him until he stopped.  It seems to me in that case no one would have been able to stop himl.  When he heard the cops coming he shot himself.  That suggest to me that there ought to be a contact line from schools to police stations so they can come as quicly as possible.  One guy isn't going to make a difference.  There should be no guns in schools.

      WE must hang together or we will all hang separately. B.Franklin

      by ruthhmiller on Thu Jan 10, 2013 at 09:16:11 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Nothing is going to work reliably (0+ / 0-)

      However, putting key people in every school through a Management Of Assaultive Behavior class would pay off every day even though it would only help with a subset of shooters.

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